An article appeared over at Thoughtcatalog listing various obvious forms of female privilege with a completely predictable comment section. Althought the denialism was completely predictable, some commenters pushed back.
The comments criticizing the article were a display case of hyopoagency, gynocentric special pleading, erasure and tradtional gender stereotypes. And of course there was the obligatory white-knighty non-responsive attempt at a rebuttal in a later post.
David Bryon, who posts really insightful and solid arguments all over the gendersphere where he is not banned, made some really important points about this denialism and then later a commenter named Sarah Stuart made the key point.
You should go read the whole thread to get the context of these comments, but I think they stand alone well enough to quote here.
DavidByron • a day ago
Hysterical ad hominem attacks are exactly how you’d expect women and feminists to react if indeed women are the privileged sex. They have the power, therefore entering a debate is irrational. They know they can win by the use of force. Men’s rights advocates know they can win if the battle is of logic and an appeal to morals.
Nobody who advocates for any oppressed minority can be surprised at this sort of reaction from the entitled and privileged.
Privilege doesn’t give up it’s (sic) power just because people ask nicely.
But that is exactly what we are supposed to believe happened with feminism. We are supposed to believe that women were always oppressed and yet the first time women asked for their rights, they were simply given it. That has never happened to any genuinely oppressed group ever. Women were given extra rights because they already enjoyed power. They had the power of being the protected sex, the cared for sex, the innocent sex. Feminists simply reframed their goals in terms of a new way to protect women, and society quickly set about fulfilling those new protections. As soon as the majority of women changed their mind and saw the vote as something that would protect women, instead of seeing it as something that would harm women, male legislators GAVE them the vote. They gained more privilege, based on the privileges they already had.
If feminists had demanded that women be protected LESS (to be equal to men) they would have had a genuinely radical movement, but feminists didn’t demand that because they didn’t want equality. That is how we have feminists today demanding more and more protections for women while women are, and always have had more protections. That is how feminists can unironically claim women suffer more from violence even though men are the majority of victims.
The easiest way to demand more and more power for themselves was to create a bogeyman that would menace women. A bogeyman that they could point to and say, “See? Women need to have more and more rights because of this terrible threat!” And so feminists set about systematically demonizing men as rapists, violently “oppressing” women. They created a conspiracy theory that said all men collaborate to keep all women down.
If “patriarchy” was real then feminism would never have succeeded without a fight.
The irony is the cry of “patriarchy” only works for feminists because our society is the exact opposite of a patriarchy. Our society is dedicated to protecting women so much that even completely irrational claims of danger towards women must be taken seriously.
Feminism is the political equivalent of a woman standing on a chair screaming for her husband to crush a bug for her. It’s a completely irrational claim of danger. And it works because society has always worked to protect women.
Ladies’ Auxiliary of the Patriarchy: Then an interesting exchange developed that ended up illustrating a major claim of the MRM, that feminism is just patriarchy repackaged:
llpk • a day ago
Most of those problems are effects of patriarchy, not female privilege. Do you want to know why there are fewer resources for men fighting domestic violence? Because it it deemed unmanly to be a victim. Who created the image of masculinity in our society? Men (as a group). It is often the same men who complain about these lacking services that also degrade men for needing the services.
Men created the image of masculinity in our society? All on our own? Women had nothing to do with it? No gay shaming, no real man narrative; women had no hand in any of this, according to llpk.. Women don’t raise children and socialize them according to llpk. The hand that rocks the cradle does not rule the world, apparently.
DavidByron >llpk • 21 hours ago
The reason there are fewer resources for men in the USA is that feminists fought hard for laws (VAWA) that made it illegal to help male victims of domestic violence.
Feminists also spread the fiction that men are not often victims of domestic violence by burring the results of hundreds of pieces of research of four decades that said DV was an equal opportunity crime.
Feminists also successfully sold all DV as partner violence, thereby hiding violence against children and elders, which is mostly committed by women. They did this to spread their hateful lies that denigrate men as evil violent scum always hurting innocent women.
The VAWA was the single biggest victory of feminism in the 1990s, and it was hate.
So please stop guessing at why things happened if you don’t know the facts. It’s true that the sort of anti-male thinking that you mention probably greased the wheels for feminists to lobby for those laws. Traditional gender roles are used and enhanced by feminists in working to denigrate men.
And the very predictable reaction – a change of misogyny and anger:
RocketGrrl >DavidByron • 18 hours ago
You seem to have a lot of anger towards women and feminists. Amusingly. I don’t know any feminists that hate or even dislike men. Including myself. Fighting for equal treatment and respect is extremely important.
Rocketgrrl either doesn’t know of Mary Daly, Andrea Dworkin, Jesica Valenti or Amanda Marcotte, or Adel Mercier; or else she doesn’t consider them feminists.
In any case, Code Red and Code Black aren’t working like they used to:
DavidByron >RocketGrrl • 13 hours ago
Are (sic) the classic “you must hate women if you disagree with feminism”
I have given many examples of feminists lobbying for anti-male discrimination.
I have challenged you to give even one example of a feminist program or victory or slogan that portrays men in a positive light.
And Commenter edtastic takes it right back to Rocketgrrl:
edtastic >RocketGrrl • 14 hours ago
You must have a lot of anger towards men because you set out to demonize men for caring about men. The anger toward feminists is fully justified by the attack on men’s equal rights and hateful social campaigns against men being waged by feminists.
“I don’t know any feminists that hate or even dislike men. Including myself.”
That’s your own self serving bias talking and we need look no further than things like the ‘white feather campaign’ pretending men aren’t even victims of domestic violence or ‘Don’t be that guy’ presuming all sexual violence perpetrators are males. Men needn’t be warm towards women who adopt an ideology that sets out to bash males and deny their pain.
And David Byron also knows how to turn feminist jargon on them:
DavidByron >llpk • a day ago
Now comes the coup de grace. Thank you, Sarah Stuart.
Sarah Stuart >llpk • 18 hours ago
So, it’s deemed “unmanly” to be a victim. That point of view is apparently part of the patriarchy. Feminists regularly attack men for being concerned about levels of male victims and they need to “man up” and focus on women. So feminists are perpetuating the patriarchy.
It all falls into place. Like the energy companies trying to “help” people reduce costs while boosting up prices, feminism is a monster that hurts and hurts to feed itself.
Edtastic sums up and closes:
edtastic >llpk • 14 hours ago
In that case feminism an effect of the patriarchy and clearly dependent on it to sustain it’s (sic) victim narratives through endless ‘patriarchy’ scapegoating.
” Do you want to know why there are fewer resources for men fighting domestic violence?”
Feminist covering up male victimization rates 30-40 years.
” Who created the image of masculinity in our society?”
“Men (as a group). It is often the same men who complain about these lacking services that also degrade men for needing the services.”
You are collectively blaming men as a sex because you don’t expect to be held accountable for your sexism against men. Meanwhile you see MRA’s keep their focus on feminists like you who engage in blatant sexism, misandry, and gender bashing to gain power over others. Who needs moral guidance on gender equality from people who can’t stop negatively stereotyping the male gender?
It is getting more and more common to see this kind of push back and to see it in more and more spaces. It is also getting more and more common to see more and more women doing it.
Even as MRAs are derided or slandered more and more, the message is spreading. It is spreading partly due to the Streisand Effect, but mostly it is spreading because people are seeing the validity in it on its own merits and going on the spread it themselves.