A Feminist View of Men’s Rights Activists

Let’s go meta for a moment. Here’s a question for all the feminists out there. A question and a really simple thought experiment.

If all the things that MRAs say happen to men actually happened to women, what would you do? What would you say? What would you want to see happen as a feminist?

Just stop the fighting for a moment and think about that.

I guarantee you wouldn’t be arguing that they didn’t actually happen to women. You wouldn’t be arguing that false rape accusations were perishingly few or that vigilante justice(including social ostracism) against the presumptively innocent was, well, unimportant; nor would you be saying that the number of attempted suicides was more important then the number of completed or that all the evidence that DV is not one sided was false; you wouldn’t be saying or implying by selective focus that the NISVS 2010′s findings regarding lifetime risk(women more at risk) of rape is more important then their findings regarding the risk over the last year(women and men equally at risk); you wouldn’t dismiss attempts to create a rebuttable presumption of equal custody, in fact you would be throwing your weight behind it; nor would you be convinced that genital mutilation in africa is more important then genital mutilation in the west; It’s quite likely that you would suddenly take a great deal more interest in homelessness, workplace injury and death.

In fact if all the things that MRAs point out happen to men, happened instead to women, you would be arguing the MRA position.

Take a moment and think about that. Really think about it.

And the next time you argue the feminist point of view think about what the feminist point of view would be if what happens to men happened, instead, to women.

55 thoughts on “A Feminist View of Men’s Rights Activists

  1. Yeah, but the problem is that feminists seem to believe that the things that MRAs claim happen to men, do not, in fact, happen to men at all.

    This has the “convenient” side effect of rendering your entire gedänkeneksperiment moot to them.

  2. @ P John Irons

    The thing is, if these things happened to women, with exactly the same amount of evidence, feminists wouldn’t deny that they’re happening! Or their importance.

    That’s what’s so frustrating.

  3. Most feminists are well aware of the hypocrisy spoken of in this post, and know in their hearts that feminism isn’t truly about equality.

    They simply don’t care.

  4. Oh, well if women made-up over 90% of workplace deaths, you know that feminists would push that issue up near the top of their agenda.

    They would be GIGANTICALLY interested in it.

    You wouldn’t be able to shut them up about it.

    The only time I see them acknowledge the issue is in response to someone pointing-out to them that it is true. At any other time, they don’t really see how it’s relevant. They get annoyed when you point it out, in fact, because it’s not about women and it is therefore unrelated to anything they care about.

    Really, feminists couldn’t care less about the issue! They don’t go into factories. Such places are too dirty for smarter-than-any-man grrrrrrl-bloggers!

    An oil rig sank off the coast of Sakhalin island a few hours ago. Guess how many women were on board? Probably none. If there were, we would have heard about it.

    Working-class men, especially, are invisible to feminists. Unless the toilet or car needs fixing, and then they are temporarily useful.

  5. “In fact if all the things that MRAs point out happen to men, happened instead to women, you would be arguing the MRA position.”

    No, I wouldn’t. Because the MRM does not take a position where they want equal rights for all. The main position of the MRM is that feminism has gone too far, that women rule the world as a concerted group, that women are less logical than men, and any variety of further sexist crap.

    I would be arguing for equal rights and against the matriarchy, which is not nearly the same thing as what the MRM does.

  6. An interesting but essentially obsolete piece of logic. Your position depends entirely on the belief that feminism really was about fairness and equality. This, obviously, was never the case. Feminism like many of the other “isms” is about dominance. The dominance of feminism was to be delivered by the trojan horse of “equality” and indeed, that is how it happened. Now, that the horse is behind the walls, feminism has exposed itself. So, what men say and the veracity of their claims makes no difference to feminists because those claims are irrelevant to true aims of the gender war. think I’m exaggerating? See recent MRA posts about RadFem Hub where men have discovered women there referring to nine year old boys as rapists and wishing they could do things like “cut off his tiny pecker” and “throw him out through a closed window.” THEN, notice that these women aren’t simply fringe whackos that society can largely ignore, they are lawyers, child care workers and politicians! The war is on folks. The time for diplomacy is long gone.

  7. Good piece of writing. Feminists are usually dysfunctional, irrational, and well useful idiots so obsessed with their subjective feelings and egos that they are unable to use empathy to understand or see the pain of others — even when the feminists are on that rare occasion trying to be honest.

    “I got Amanda Marcotte to call me a ‘creep’.”
    — You did? I am so jealous. I bow in respect to you Clarence. That is a great honor.

  8. @ Alyosha

    “No, I wouldn’t. Because the MRM does not take a position where they want equal rights for all. The main position of the MRM is that feminism has gone too far, that women rule the world as a concerted group, that women are less logical than men, and any variety of further sexist crap.”

    So the MRM is the inverse of feminist theory?

    I’m talking about all the issues that men’s rights activists point to as oppression and have agitated for.

    Let’s separate out that from theory for a moment.

    “I would be arguing for equal rights and against the matriarchy, which is not nearly the same thing as what the MRM does.”

    This seems to be sort of dodging the issue. I’m saying if the statistical issues that men face, women actually faced, what would feminists do and think about that?

  9. Alyosha Vasilieva “Because the MRM does not take a position where they want equal rights for all. The main position of the MRM is that feminism has gone too far, that women rule the world as a concerted group, that women are less logical than men, and any variety of further sexist crap.”

    They do argue for equal rights by arguing that feminism has gone to far. As for the rest of your comment, well, some men express themselves better than others on such a complex topic. So what? Not everyone can be a wordsmith.

    “I would be arguing for equal rights and against the matriarchy, which is not nearly the same thing as what the MRM does.”

    It is EXACTLY what the MRM does. To presume otherwise is your preference to let your bias support your argument. You very obviously speak from the fairly typical feminist position that because a few men hold privilege, ALL men hold privilege (apex fallacy). This is clearly incorrect and to support my position, here are some numbers reprinted from another article. I hope that contrary to your current positional strategy, you do not simply dismiss these numbers out of hand.

    Unsheltered Homeless (2009) [1]
    Women – 12,000 – 4%
    Men – 240,000 – 96%

    Life Expectancy (2006) [2]
    Women – 80.8 Years
    Men – 75.7 Years

    Suicides (2008) [3]
    Women – 7,585 – 19%
    Men – 28,450 – 81%

    Deaths by Homicide (2004) [4]
    Women – 3,856 – 20%
    Men – 14,717 – 80%

    Deaths from Cancer (2004) [4]
    Women – 269,819
    Men – 290,069

    Deaths from HIV/AIDS (2004) [4]
    Women – 3,357
    Men – 8,756

    Federal Funds for Sex Specific Cancer Research [5]
    Women – Breast Cancer – $631,000,000 – 40,000 Deaths
    Men – Prostate Cancer – $300,000,000 – 33,000 Deaths

    Deaths on the Job (2010) [6]
    Women – 355 – 7%
    Men – 4,192 – 93%

    Injuries on the Job (2007) [10]
    Women – 36%
    Men – 64%

    College Enrollment (2009) [7]
    Women – 58% – 11,658,000
    Men – 42% – 8,770,000

    Affirmative Action Education Programs (Gender Specific) [8]
    Women – Yes
    Men – No

    Unemployment Rates (2010) [9]
    Women – 8.6% – 6,199,000
    Men – 10.5% – 8,626,000

    Average Hours Worked Per Week (2010) [11]
    Women – 36.1
    Men – 40.2

    High School Graduation Rates (2005) [12]
    Women – 72%
    Men – 65%

    Incarceration Rates (2009) [13]
    Women – 114,979 – 7%
    Men – 1,502,49 – 93%

    Child Custody Rates [14]
    Women – 11,268,000 custodial mothers
    Men – 2,907,000 custodial fathers

    US Military Deaths From 1950 – 2010 [15][16][17]
    Women – 139 – 0.001%
    Men – 100,063 – 99.99%

    Federally Funded Battered Shelters [18]
    Women – 2,000+ $300,000,000 per year
    Men – None – $0

    Federally Funded Health Offices and Research 1970 – Present (not including cancer research) [19]
    Women Only – Office, Projects and Programs 70+ – Funds – $100,000,000,000
    Men Only – None – $0

    Forced Selective Service
    Women – No
    Men – Yes

    Drug and Alcohol Addiction and Abuse Rates (2010) [20]
    Women – 5.8%
    Men – 12.2%

    All the numbers are documented and footnoted (but the footnote links didn’t copy). If it is okay, I will include a link to the author’s article from which you can follow the footnotes):
    http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/the-feminist-fantasy-of-male-privilege/

  10. You may want to add:
    Rape (being penetrated or being made to penetrate without consent) (2010):
    Women: 1.1% (1,270,000)
    Men: 1.1% (1,267,000)

    Source: “Last 12 months” prevalence for rape and “being made to penetrate someone else” in National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey 2010 by the CDC.

    CDC is considered a reputable producer of rape statistics by many and for instance RAINN uses the results from their 2008 study (which did not ask questions about “being made to penetrate someone else”) in the statistics on their homepage. It will be interesting to see what RAINN for instance does with the 2010 survey results.

  11. It seems that the dreaded Ms Vasilieva has dropped in to prove, yet again, that feminists are incapable of the empathy required to have any genuine concern for equality. There is no reasoning with her ilk. She is blind and inpenetrable – happy to nurse and coddle her envy and rage.

    You cannot ‘cure’ a feminist. Their antipathy towards men and boys is visceral. A thought-provoking article with excellent commentary.

  12. @ Leta

    Not sure what you’re getting at there. Could you make it less cryptic for those among us who are a bit slow(me)?

  13. He is just absurd i can’t understand why anyone would take Ken Solin seriously.

    Ken says “Relations­h­ips require both people to be emotionall­­y conscious and in control. That’s what the book cover implies.”

    MissTake replies “You mean the book cover where she, with fists clenched, is screaming at him to “Act like a man”? That one? ”
    he says yes that one.

    Like what the fuck? how can someone be pro feminist and then complain about whining being unmanly then suggest that a woman yelling at someone to “act like a man”? is somehow rational and in control. Whilst somehow having feminist there agree with him in the comments. I guess he is serious i just don’t understand how someone can be so lacking in self awareness.

  14. @ Leta

    Was MissTake a feminist? I thought she was calling him out.

  15. MissTake1989
    “Former feminist. I now believe in actual equality”
    Ken Solin later on calls misstake a man. its bizarre.

  16. @ leta

    Not unexpected. A woman either preforms her role as victim or she gets her gender identity revoked (on the internet at least).

  17. goatini
    We are two-legged wombs, that’s all
    says this.
    “I see that the majority of the posts on this topic are by the usual whiny suspects. Ken, I very much appreciate your reality-ba­sed take on this topic, and also your level-head­ed responses to the whiners.

    “Men who treat women with respect and dignity will find few who will mistreat them in return.” – EXACTLY. ”
    And there is Bellanova:
    “I don’t see women on HP blaming men in their lives for all their failures and miseries.

    But there is a contingent of guys who do just that at every opportunit­y. That’s whining. ”

    Its just weird seeing these feminists congratulate a guy who basically said whining is a female trait.

  18. Question:

    What on earth– what reason– do feminists have for thinking that they know the ins and outs of men’s lives better than men do?

    And, no, please don’t say ‘ideological arrogance’ or whatnot. I want to know how feminists can possibly convince themselves that they know better than men what men’s lives are like..What reason do they cite?

    I would never go-around claiming that I know what it’s like to be a cop. Yes, I’ve seen cop shows and, once in a long while I’ve interacted with cops, so I might have some inkling of what it’s like being a cop. But, were I harassed by cops, I would NEVER then feel qualified to go-around saying that I know what cop’s lives are like better than the cops themselves.

  19. Aych: “What on earth– what reason– do feminists have for thinking that they know the ins and outs of men’s lives better than men do?”

    Because that way they can make men’s lives fit feminist theory rather than change the theory to accommodate reality. Any other explanation, such as ‘being victims of oppression therefore they know the oppressor best’ or ‘not being blinded by privilege’, is simply a rationalization of why they do this.

    The truth is that they just don’t care, many will admit this; with rationalizations such as ‘I’m can only care about so much’ and ‘it’s not a zero sum situation’, to cover for the fact that they aren’t as egalitarian and empathic as they like to think they are.

    Like all successful faiths, feminist theory simultaneously provides an explanation for everything _and_ provides ways to deflect any evidence which shows those explanations to be false.

    On the OP: typhonblue, you’re forgetting about the power… dynamic…arrow thing… pointing towards… away from men and OPPRESSION. That’s why women’s problems are more important! And that’s why they would be more important if the exact same issues that affect men, affected women instead.

  20. um, somehow I got my last two paragraphs back to front. I blame lack of sleep.

  21. @ leta

    Actually, it was something in your comment that made me think that.

  22. Feminism: Women’s lives suck! Men have it great!
    Men and Women: Actually, it kinda sucks being a man, too.
    Feminism: Nope! That’s just your privilege talking.
    Men and Women: Oh, how stupid of me. Glad we cleared that up.

  23. In the atheist and secular community there is a phrase that is used to describe religionists who lie about reality in order to push their agenda. “Liars for Jesus”. This phrase has particular bite to it because those religionists love their Jesus so much that they flat out would lie for him. So it sort of plays on their subconscious as well as calls them out. So I wonder what do certain feminists love so much, like how some people love jesus so much? Vaginas? I don’t know. “Liars for Vagina” doesn’t make any sense (and lol it sounds like men who want “pussy”). So is there a phrase already in use or do we come up with a new one? “Pussy Propaganda” sounds too crass. Any ideas? Or it it just not worth it.

  24. I’ve kinda become a fan of the term “systematic” (or systemic, depending) because it can be used to deny almost anything. Male rape and abuse? “we’re sorry that that hapened to you, but it’s not really ‘systematic’ abuse.”

    Men being the majority of poverty? “Well, male poverty isn’t systematic, like female poverty is.”

    What’s it mean? Who knows? Who cares? It’s more useful than a swiss army knife, I’ll tell you that.

  25. Stupid quote for the day:
    “Nobody “organized” me into tweeting this but you can go fuck yourself for saying feminists prevent men from expressing themselves”

    The lack of self awareness … feminists proving every day that women are as fucked up as men are.

  26. Paul: When a woman runs-into a creepy man on the bus who stares at her too long, that’s also somehow ‘systematic.’ Not mention that staring is behavior on a ‘continuum’ which goes all the way to oppression, rape and murder.

    These ‘systems’ and ‘continuums’ are so handy! Things which are unrelated to oppression, rape and murder can be successfully linked to oppression, rape and murder.

    Like magic.

  27. So one phrase that Dan Dennett came up with was “faith fibbing” which can be expanded to “feminist fibbing” or “feminist faith fibbing”. Or FFF. But maybe that’s not harsh enough. And I only “suggest” this because so much of what feminists do is argue with talking points. I like to throw that back at them. And even though I’m generally a fan of fighting fire with water sometimes fighting fire with fire makes enough light to show everyone how bad it all is. I certainly believe in the many angles approach to elicit change.

  28. Homelessness: There are more homeless women with their children than homeless men. FACT. I fucken dare you to dispute this.

    Workplace Injury: Is very sad. In Australia we have a WorkCover authority to attempt to address these issues that mainly consist of male dominated industries with male employers who fail to provide a safe work environment for their male workers cause they’re selfish greedy miserable cunts. Last time I looked, however, the blokes on these building sites or mines didn’t have guns to their heads. They CHOSE these high risk professions. Now you might ask WHY did they they choose these high risk employment activities. For the $$$$$ fellas. Yes for the mula.

    Suicide: And in particular, youth suicide. There are probably a thousand reasons why a person would choose to take their own life rather than suffer through another day on this planet. Shit, you only have to watch the news to find good reason these days. What is particularly disturbing is the rate of suicide amongst young gay men. You fuckwads probably don’t give a fuck about that though. However, if I were a young man who took on board what you miserable selfish bastards have to say about yourselves as feeble victims, about women as evil witches, about sex, about children, about the state of the world in general, I’d probably top myself too.

    Have a fucken nice day gents

  29. By the way you bunch of shit for brains MRA turds, I was out to dinner with three female friends. Three out of four of us had been raped in our lives. One by a loving boyfriend who raped and beat her, myself at gunpoint by my ex boyfriend who had beaten me and who I had broken up with two weeks earlier and one as a child by her neighbour. So fuck you. Hands up all those fucking turds on this crappy site that have been raped.

  30. @ Sandra

    >There are more homeless women with their children than homeless men. FACT. I fucken dare you to dispute this.

    Could you cite your assertion, then I would be in position to dispute it.

    BTW, are you saying that there are more homeless women with children then homeless men with children or that there are more homeless women with children then homeless men in general?

    >Last time I looked, however, the blokes on these building sites or mines didn’t have guns to their heads.

    So we don’t need to be concerned with any social phenomena that doesn’t involve putting a gun to someone’s head (or any other form of overwhelming force I assume)?

    In which case we’re left with very few social phenomena on either side in the first world.

    In fact I think we’re left with two. Forced circumcision of non-consenting minors in the first world and debtors prison for men who don’t pay child support. Both of which are maintained through (legal)threats and overwhelming force.

    >What is particularly disturbing is the rate of suicide amongst young gay men.

    Considering that Ginko is gay, I imagine he would find such knowledge of interest to himself, being a gay man who is gay.

    > Three out of four of us had been raped in our lives.

    I won’t name names specifically but I know at least three men who post here who were raped, and several more who were sexually assaulted.

    Also, according to the CDC’s most recent survey, men have an equal risk of being raped in the past year. And around 80% of male rape victims, raped in the last year, were raped by women.

    >By the way you bunch of shit for brains MRA turds

    I’m pretty sure that none of us here identify as MRAs any more then we identify as feminists.

    I’m assuming since you identify as feminist you aren’t interested in the neutral, non-aligned middle ground therefore Genderattic is likely not for you. You are still welcome to participate, of course.

  31. “Homelessness: There are more homeless women with their children than homeless men. FACT. I fucken dare you to dispute this.”

    Just walk out on the street – all the homeless are men. No woemn anywhere. This is in Seattle and it’s the same everywhere else. In the shelters the percentages are around 85% men and the rest both women and children. And almost ALL long-term homeless are men.

    “So fuck you. Hands up all those fucking turds on this crappy site that have been raped.”

    You’re not very clear here – are we supposed to feel compassion for rape victims – those friends of yours – or are we supposed to agree with you that they are turds? Please clarify.

    “What is particularly disturbing is the rate of suicide amongst young gay men. You fuckwads probably don’t give a fuck about that though. ”

    Sandra, you appear to identify as a feminist. Feminists have a horrible record of transphobia and especially of homophobia, and it is inherent in your class analysis of oppression. So your expression of concern for young gay men is not credible unless you clarify that you do not believe in male privilege and genders as opposed clases with men as the oppressor class.

  32. “Betcha don’t have the ovaries to publish either comment in full”

    There is no reason at all to delete your comment or any part of it. It is almost totally misinformed, but that is hardly a reason to delete it. why would you expect it to be deleted?

  33. You may not identify as an MRA in the MRM but mate if it oinks like a pig and smells like a pig, and it attracts other pigs, it’s generally a pig.

    “Could you cite your assertion, then I would be in position to dispute it.”

    No. Do your own research. You might actually learn something that way instead of trotting out these same 5 or 6 drivelling MRA misinformation dogmas. I’ll give you a hint. Start with the World Health Organisation website and go on to other actual authoritative sites.

    “BTW, are you saying that there are more homeless women with children then homeless men with children or that there are more homeless women with children then homeless men in general?”

    I thought I was pretty clear, but I’ll try and spell it out. More homeless women with their children than homeless men in general. It’s far harder to live a homeless existence when one must not only try to take care of oneself but also a child or a number of children.

    “So we don’t need to be concerned with any social phenomena that doesn’t involve putting a gun to someone’s head (or any other form of overwhelming force I assume)? In which case we’re left with very few social phenomena on either side in the first world. In fact I think we’re left with two. Forced circumcision of non-consenting minors in the first world and debtors prison for men who don’t pay child support. Both of which are maintained through (legal)threats and overwhelming force.”

    This statement is incoherent. But what I think you’re trying to get at it is your angy about male circumcision. I’ve never seen anybody put a gun to somebody’s head in order to perform or undergo circumcision, but maybe you have. I presume you’re American? I apologise if I’m wrong. I agree, it is unecessary mutilation. In Australia it is no longer a matter of course (and hasn’t been for some 20 years) for male babies to be circumcised. In fact most doctors refuse to do it at all and there is much literature about the evils of circumcision in pre natal classes and the maternity ward. In Jewish families it’s probably still carried out in the majority of occasions – but that’s religion. Man. Made. Social. Phenomenon. Doesn’t patriarchy suck? In non Jewish households the only reason you’ll hear families insisting on their sons being circumcised is that dad wants son to “be the same” as him. I had no idea that circumcisions were forced practice in the US or whatever first world country you are at?

    You’re also angy about debtors prison for fathers who don’t pay child support. Well here’s a novel idea. PAY FOR YOUR CHILD. PAY CHILD SUPPORT. STOP STIFFING YOUR CHILD. Then you won’t go to prison. Again, in Australia we don’t have debtors prison for arsewipes who refuse to take financial responsibility for their own children but it sounds like a grand idea to me.

    “around 80% of male rape victims, raped in the last year, were raped by women”

    Well that’s only natural isn’t it? What with women being physically stronger than men a woman would only have to hold a man down and sexually arouse him to the point of an erection to rape him or hold him down and prong him in the arse with a broom handle depending on her personal preference – Oh jesus on a jatzcracker I don’t know what the CDC is or who they surveyed but if you believe this story I have a very nice coathanger shaped bridge in Sydney I’d like to sell you.

  34. Just walk out on the street. Feminists have a horrible record of transphobia bla bla bla yada yada yada…Ginko you are clearly an intellectual giant.

  35. “Well that’s only natural isn’t it? What with women being physically stronger than men a woman would only have to hold a man down and sexually arouse him to the point of an erection to rape him or hold him down and prong him in the arse with a broom handle depending on her personal preference”

    Sandra, this is called erasure and it is suprising to see a feminist engaging in rape apology like this.

    ““Could you cite your assertion, then I would be in position to dispute it.”
    No. Do your own research.”

    We have done our research. As I say, just going out on the street is research into homelessness. You made an assertion contrary to our emprical experience and we are simply asking you to support it.

    “This statement is incoherent. But what I think you’re trying to get at it is your angy about male circumcision. I’ve never seen anybody put a gun to somebody’s head in order to perform or undergo circumcision, but maybe you have.”

    Typhonblue stated her position quite coherently. It has nothing to do with coercion applied to whoever ordres the circumcsion. It’s not about that person at all, since it’s not their body.

    “You’re also angy about debtors prison for fathers who don’t pay child support. Well here’s a novel idea. PAY FOR YOUR CHILD. PAY CHILD SUPPORT. STOP STIFFING YOUR CHILD. Then you won’t go to prison. ”

    The issue with child support is the parent raising the child is already supporting the child and shouldn’t have to pay anything to anyone. The issue is that the child should be with her or his father at least half time and parenting should be shared because it is best for a child to be raiesed by both parents. Now if a parent who interferes with this then that is a matter for criminal action because it is a gross violation of the child’s rights. But that isn’t likely to happen very often. The very lop-sided situation we have is the product of patriarchal traditions and reactionary family courts, not the personal chioices of the majority of parents.

    By the way:
    “What is particularly disturbing is the rate of suicide amongst young gay men. You fuckwads probably don’t give a fuck about that though.”

    I am a gay man. I probably know and care quite a lot about what gay men go through growing up. Do you still stand by this statement of yours?

    And something else:
    “…male employers who fail to provide a safe work environment for their male workers cause they’re selfish greedy miserable cunts.”

    Your use of the term “cunt” is very, very problematic here – in fact it is unacceptable. The term is inherently and irreparably misogynistic. Your observation “You may not identify as an MRA in the MRM but mate if it oinks like a pig and smells like a pig, and it attracts other pigs, it’s generally a pig.” applies in this connection. Only MRAs use that term in gender discussions. This is not my thread so I am only asking, but please don’t use woman-bashing, misogynist insults here.

  36. @ Sandra

    “Start with the World Health Organisation website and go on to other actual authoritative sites.”

    Are you talking about refugees? I believe women tend to be refugees from war torn areas more often but mostly because men are more likely to be selectively targeted for killing. And that’s the only conclusion you can draw since if there are more female refugees in a refugee population, that really invites the question _where did the men go_? Into graves, usually.

    According to the National Coalition for the Homeless, 65% of the single homeless are men. 35% of the homeless with children are men. That means around 60% of the homeless are men. And that doesn’t distinguish between the sheltered and unsheltered homeless. Unsheltered homeless tend to be mostly men.

    “I’ve never seen anybody put a gun to somebody’s head in order to perform or undergo circumcision, but maybe you have.”

    I don’t think an adult has to put a gun to an infant boy’s head in order to force him to undergo circumcision, no. But considering the power differential between an adult and an infant, I would still consider it an exercise in force for an adult to strap a protesting child down and cut off part of the child’s body.

    “You’re also angy about debtors prison for fathers who don’t pay child support.”

    Angry? Well, not personally. And that should be fairly obvious why.

    This is a far more complex issue then what you’re making it out to be. First of all debtors prisons are not constitutional, and they are part of an archaic age that we should not be harkening back to, regardless of how ‘justified’ we think they are. Second of all, family courts have the ability to put people in prison without the same evidence required by criminal courts or their obligation to provide a public defender to those people who cannot afford them. This behaviour represents a reversal in our progress towards universal human rights. Because it’s perpetrated against a group of people commonly seen as ‘untouchables’ is irrelevant.

    “Oh jesus on a jatzcracker I don’t know what the CDC is or who they surveyed but if you believe this story I have a very nice coathanger shaped bridge in Sydney I’d like to sell you.”

    The CDC is the US government’s Center of Disease Control.

  37. Ginko, it’s hard to argue or discuss anything with you because you go off on MRA tangents and just recite the usual 5 MRA answers to everything without ever thinking about what you are saying. But being a good sport, I’ll give it a go.

    Tis not rape apology. Tis pointing out the absurdity of the assertion.

    Going out on the street is research. OK. Who can argue with that logic? Depending of course on which street you are on.

    Still not getting your circumcision angle unless you live in a country where it is mandatory. Do you? Is it? As female genital mutilation and breast mutiliation is mandatory in some African communities?

    The parent raising the child does not pay child support. The parent who does not share the majority of time with the child pays the child support because raising children is extremely expensive. As to your 50/50% child timeshare assertion I could not disagree with you more. How would you like to shift house every bloody week? How is this in the best interests of the child? I guess it is possible if the child were to live in the “matrimonial home” full time and the parents alternated living there on a weekly basis. How practical is this? How many parents can you see agreeing to this? It is ridiculously selfish to expect a child to move house every single week but I’m not advocating that women be granted residence of children in 100% of cases either and they are NOT. Whoever the child is closest to should be the parent with the residential care of the child. Most of the time that will be the mother because she carried the baby, she birthed the baby, she is responsible for it’s very existence, she fed the baby, she nurtured the baby and raised and looked after the child for the majority of the time. MRA’s only want 50/50% timeshare to avoid paying child support anyway.

    You might be a gay man but that does not mean you’re not a douche. Of course I care about youth suicide and gay youth suicide. I would not have brought it up otherwise.

    I stand by my right to use the word cunt. I have reclaimed it as a black person has reclaimed the “n” word.

  38. The next time someone mentions how men go into places to derail conversation, I may just point them at this thread.

  39. Typhonblue I am astounded that you are female. It makes my heart heavy.

    Yes I am talking about the majority of the world’s homeless people. Refugees are homeless. Men are not targeting for killing. Where do you get this stuff?

    Again, is male circumcision mandatory where you live? You don’t appear to have taken into consideration anything that I have brought up or asked you.

    Child support is not a complex issue. I am not sure of the percentage of deadbeat dads where you come from but here if a parent liable to pay child support fails to pay it, a debt is built up and eventually the child support agency will attempt to bankrupt the non paying parent in order to recoup the debt owed. In my personal case the child support agency wanted to bankrupt my ex who owed around $35,000 in unpaid child support, but because he had committed fraud by keeping money mistakenly given to him by a bank, when the bankruptcy came to fruition the bank (being far more important and in need that his children) put their hand out first of course and his children were again stiffed by their deadbeat dad and the patriarchal banking system. You don’t seem to mention children anywhere in your complaints against child support debtors prison. You don’t seem to be taking into consideration the interests of the child or children at all. You’re conflating a very simple issue. Be responsible for your children. Pay for your children or don’t have them. If you are not responsible you will go to prison. I hope they bring this law into Australia.

  40. @ Sandra

    “Ginko, it’s hard to argue or discuss anything with you because you go off on MRA tangents and just recite the usual 5 MRA answers to everything without ever thinking about what you are saying.”

    Please explain what you consider the ‘usual 5 MRA answers to everything’.

    “Tis not rape apology. Tis pointing out the absurdity of the assertion.”

    The assertion is backed up by statistical evidence from a large community survey in the states done by the US government’s Centre for Disease Control.

    I will be doing a blog post on the CDC’s survey shortly. You are welcome to discuss it further on that post.

    “Most of the time that will be the mother because she carried the baby, she birthed the baby, she is responsible for it’s very existence, she fed the baby, she nurtured the baby and raised and looked after the child for the majority of the time. ”

    So I am to understand you support a presumption of maternal custody?

    “Of course I care about youth suicide and gay youth suicide. I would not have brought it up otherwise.”

    You brought it up in the context of dismissing the bloggers concern for the higher rates of suicide in men, specifically implying that bloggers wouldn’t care about ‘gay youth’ because we’re all ‘cis straight men?’ That strongly suggests rather then caring about ‘gay youth suicide’ you appear to be using it as a rhetorical bludgeon to stifle conversation about male suicide, gay, straight, cis or trans.

    My co-blogger is likely getting upset at the use of a problem that gay youth face in this manner. Particularly since he’s gay himself.

    “Yes I am talking about the majority of the world’s homeless people. Refugees are homeless. Men are not targeting for killing. Where do you get this stuff?”

    Simple logic.

    Natural disasters and war displace equal numbers of men and women. Why do I know that? Because if a natural disaster or war causes women to flee, it’s unlikely that the men are staying behind in the community. The same conditions that cause women to flee, generally also cause men to flee.

    So, right there you have to ask yourself, _where are the men fleeing these conditions if most refugees are women_?

    And then there’s also this:

    http://www.gendercide.org/case.html

    It’s a compilation of the gendercide of men and women around the world and historically. Notice that men are most often targeted for selective killing.

    “Again, is male circumcision mandatory where you live?”

    Circumcision doesn’t have to be mandatory to be forced. It simply has to happen without the consent of the penis owner. Which is standard operating procedure with infant circumcision.

    “Child support is not a complex issue.”

    I’m afraid it is. And it’s rather more complex to get into then is possible in a off-topic comment on a thread not actually created for the purpose. If you check back in the future I will be talking about men’s reproductive rights and the implications they hold for the legitimacy of child support.

    I hope to see your comments then.

    “I stand by my right to use the word cunt. I have reclaimed it as a black person has reclaimed the “n” word.”

    Your use, here, suggests that you still consider it an insult.

    “Typhonblue I am astounded that you are female. It makes my heart heavy.”

    I appreciate your concern, but I do feel that it’s misplaced. I personally have experienced the process of unloading my victim-consciousness as a liberating and often intensely joyous experience. Not unlike being finally released from a pair of mental shackles that were hampering my free expression.

  41. @ Sandra

    “I’m pleased you are feeling so empowerful. Ignorance is bliss.”

    Ignorance of what? I’m aware of the arguments underpinning the patriarchal construct of woman-as-acted-upon. I’m afraid I’m just not convinced by them.

  42. “Typhonblue I am astounded that you are female. It makes my heart heavy.”

    I appreciate your concern, but I do feel that it’s misplaced.”

    Not so. It’s much easier for Sandra to dismiss men’s opinions because such opinions are de facto meaningless, irrelevant and idiotic… Ahh, but when a woman speaks? That’s not so easy for her to laugh-off. She… expects something wiser from the likes of you.

  43. Ginkgo: “Your use of the term “cunt” is very, very problematic here – in fact it is unacceptable. The term is inherently and irreparably misogynistic.”

    In my experience, this seems to be a very American-centric view of such words. I may be wrong but, except for ideologues, people in other parts of the Anglosphere tend to recognise that words can have different meanings and just because one such meaning relates to women, it doesn’t mean that all meanings do or that all usages are misogynistic. I’ve read all the usual feminist arguments of course on why they are misogynistic but they tend to rely on an amateurish view on language and how it works. Considering your expertise in this area I’m surprised to see you share that view, or have I failed to grasp something?

    P.S Reclaiming a word tends to involve redefining it and not using it as a derogatory term. See previous examples from the gay and black communities.

  44. Men’s Rights Movement is not a movement begging any privilege for men, it stands for gender equality, for ending discrimination against men with gender neutral laws for true equality, and for honour and dignity of men.

    Since the first day of human civilization, Men are sacrificing their blood to protect women, children and society. It is Men, who are doing back breaking labour to get food for women and children. Against any threat to society and people, it is men who are sacrificing their life on frontiers. It is the Men, who are paying most taxes to the state so that society may function….. But what is society giving to men for such sacrifices?
    Men are committing suicides at much higher rates, False allegations are leveled against men by women, Men do not have any rights in marital laws, fruits of Men’s labour is being usurped through maintenance laws, men have no rights for his children, feminized education causes high percentage of male student dropouts, workplace is being made dangerous through sexual harassment laws, higher taxation on men, gender biased sexual assault laws, reservation against men……. why?
    Well, we are aware that what we are asking cannot be denied. We know that all women except feminists will endorse what we are asking. We also know that feminists will never agree to us as they are not interested in any equality. But, feminists is a small group- we dont care for their views. We use the term Feminist in a gender neutral way.

  45. I used to wonder why the suicide statistic never showed up when feminists claim oppression. With all the psychological problems that women allegedly face (because of men…), like anorexia, I thought they must kill themselves more.
    At last, it all fits. Who would claim oppression based on a mild psychological illness when you have suicide on your side ?
    It’s hard to see a movement that is capable of such machiavellian manipulation of facts as anything else than malevolent. Especially since feminism portrays women as empathic and innately good. What a perverse betrayal…
    Learning about these issues makes me angrier than I ever was when I thought women were oppressed. Anyway, a wise man said : ” Don’t look for evil, when stupidity will do” (I’m paraphrasing). So maybe feminists are just fools at the mercy of their evolutionary instincts, like you guys say. I haven’t decided yet if they deserve my contempt or my hate.

  46. Hi, Jacksam.

    “It’s hard to see a movement that is capable of such machiavellian manipulation of facts as anything else than malevolent.”

    That’s par for the course with high-minded social reformers. Stalinists and Temperance League people have nothing on these people.

    Welcome to the blog, Rajesh! Thanks for your comments.

  47. “That’s par for the course with high-minded social reformers. Stalinists and Temperance League people have nothing on these people.”

    True. Perhaps it is precisely feminist’s belief that “women can do no wrong” that leads them to do wrong. Just like stalinists believe they can do no wrong in persuing their utopy. Thinking yourself to be only Dr. Jekyll, creates Ms. Hyde. When one assumes one is always morally right, the necessity to second-guess one’s actions vanishes.
    So feminists are not willfully ignoring men’s suffering, they are simply blind to it. I’m going to go with contempt, i.e. your interpretation. Somebody should have said : “Contempt is the thinking man’s hate”.

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