DOUBLE STANDARDS – HPV and cunnilingus and how only women-haters won’t go down

This just in: 

The virus, HPV, is best known for causing cervical cancer. But experts say it also is a growing cause of certain types of oral cancer, those in the upper throat. In the U.S., the American Cancer Society estimates there will be nearly 14,000 new cases of upper throat cancer this year. The government says recent studies suggest almost two-thirds of those are caused by HPV.

Researchers say women sometimes get oral cancer caused by HPV, but the risk is greatest and rising among men.

And now Michael Douglas is coming out and saying, yep, this really happens and HPV is how he got throat cancer, and he attributes it to cunnilingus.

This is going to upset some cherished pieties. It is going to upset the notion that the Pure Vessel gets to make her demands and her partner’s a “vagina-phobic” knuckle-dragger if he voices any qualms.

Jill Filipovic says (Hat tip to Stonerwithaboner) she respects everyone’s right to sexual boundaries, she says, but when it comes to cunnilingus, well, maybe that sexual boundary needs to be “interrogated” as “vagina-phobia” although of course “(He’s definitely not entitled to blowjobs either)” because that could never be penis-phobic. No, never. You really can’t make this shit up. And what was that about feminists not being misandrist, no, not in the least?

So now there’s a clear link between HPV and throat cancer, and the incidence is highest among men, so that tells us where they are coming into contact with virus – the huge majority that are not getting it from other men. I wonder if Filipovic considers it misogynist to ask a woman to show a shot record when she asks for that lick.

33 thoughts on “DOUBLE STANDARDS – HPV and cunnilingus and how only women-haters won’t go down

  1. A real man doesn’t let a little throat cancer get in the way of pleasuring womyn…

    and he also ins’t afraid of an empowered womyn with a strap-on…

    I’ve paid all the money from the pledge drives at my site to enjoy the privilege several times…

    I can’t believe you misogynists… but then you throw a hat tip to a blogger who lives in his car, what did I expect…

  2. Hmmm? As a first, I disagree with everyone.

    Gingko, most men aren’t – or weren’t – aware of this disease, so whatever Jill said was right for it’s time.

    That said, Jill’s article was, indeed, weird as fuck. I agree that if you’re not getting your needs met, you’re entitled to dump the person, just as the person is entitled to not meet your needs if he/she doesn’t want to. But for some reason she implies that mot wanting to go down on a woman is misogyny, while not wanting to go down on a man is … blank. Becuase everything bad that happens to women is the result of misogyny. It’s totally different when a woman doesn’t want to go down on a man rather than vice versa, because of “important cultural and historical reasons”. Zero proof.

  3. http://www.salon.com/2013/06/02/the_truth_about_female_desire_its_base_animalistic_and_ravenous/

    “We spent a day following Deidrah, a relatively tranquil, low-key female monkey, who was nevertheless relentlessly stalking — sexually stalking — her object of desire. If there’s any objectification going on in the monkey kingdom, it’s the females objectifying the males, chasing them, and sort of all but forcing them. It wasn’t just Deidrah, of course — it was all the female monkeys that we were following, and it was just alarming how we could be so sure of this other reality, and blind to the truth that was just staring us right in the face. “

  4. Actually, Douglas denies he said it and that his words were miscontrued.

  5. Jill Filipovic have stated outright that she thinks people are entitled to sexual pleasure.
    Some of you may remember the scorn heaped on the blogger Emporiasexus when he suggested the same.

    On the subject of feminist’s entitlement to cunnilingus I have to bring up Alyssa’s Rosenberg take on a rape scene in the show Louie where a female character used threats and finally physical violence to make her date reciprocate oral sex: http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1bwp63/tvshow_shows_male_rape_feminist_writes_article/

    So it’s not just Jill Filipovic. It’s also Alyssa Rosenberg, it’s also Salon’s Willa Paskin and Emily Heist Moss in the last paragraph here..

    This paper is highly relevant: http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Women%27s+negotiation+of+cunnilingus+in+college+hookups+and…-a0278880596

    Reverse reciprocity in which the woman received oral sex, but the man did not, was also reported by several women in relationships. In these cases, men performed oral sex as foreplay, and instead of reciprocating, the couple would use intercourse for what Holly described as the “functional equivalent” to achieve orgasm for the man.

  6. Navin,
    “Gingko, most men aren’t – or weren’t – aware of this disease, so whatever Jill said was right for it’s time.”

    No, it was fucked up on the merits at the time, as you go on to say. The disease is just the final nail.

    “I agree that if you’re not getting your needs met, you’re entitled to dump the person, just as the person is entitled to not meet your needs if he/she doesn’t want to.”

    Yes x 100. Why can’t people just move on? Get a test, straight woman, and when you know you are negative, go find men who like what you like. Why is that so hard?

    Ha, look ! Futurelle has come sniffing around with his standard pathetic man-hating shit. Don’t let the sun rise on you! By the way, did you just say you had to PAY a woman to peg you?

  7. When asked if her partner cared if she had an orgasm, Denise replied, “Yeah … think most guys do care though. From my, at least my experience talking to them, it does seem to be important to them. It’s a matter of their own personal confidence and success level, I guess.” She attributed this to sex being a “result driven” pursuit for most men. These findings echo the unintended consequences of the heterosexual discourse outlined by Braun, Gavey, and McPhilips (2003) in that the emphasis on reciprocity obligates women to have an orgasm, leading women to sometimes fake orgasm. Since cunnilingus is focused on the woman, the pressure to orgasm is heightened because the orgasm serves as an affirmation of masculine sexual competency; and, as suggested earlier, women’s concerns for men’s egos sometimes made it difficult for women to communicate how they liked cunnilingus to be performed.

    From the article.

    Look how they can reframe men wanting to please women sexually as them oppressing women to show how macho they are. I mean, wtf?

  8. Thanks for the link to Filipovic’s article. It should be posted again and again as a textbook example of how so often feminists misuse language, cast off the twin patriarchal shackles of logic and compassion, and shame men. No doubt once she’d finished interrogating the aversion we heterosexual men have to women’s bodies, she went back to complaining about the oppressive interest we heterosexual men show in women’s bodies? It sounds like a very intellectual task she set herself in this article but in the end it was disappointingly nothing more than a euphemism for calling men misogynists, sexists, vagina-phobic puppy-kickers for finding a sexual act that she happens to like “gross”.

    It’s pathetic really isn’t it? Rather than address her (or other women’s) emotions and personal relationships in a mature and confident way, she mind-reads men, telling us that when we say we find something unpleasant, that it’s really because we find women’s bodies icky, or because we just don’t care about women’s pleasure. It sounds like a tantrum from a 3-year old who can’t understand what empathy is yet, and just makes demands rather than resolving conflict by finding out how other people think/feel when they don’t get their candy. She turns a woman not getting her way into a woman not being respected, or even being “pathologised”, the grown-up equivalent of our 3-year old accusing his parents of not loving him enough to buy him the candy.

    It’s quite good fun reading the words she uses. She could teach us all a thing or two about using big words while making yourself out to be a victim. Men’s rights would be a lot more fun if we invented some.

    On a more serious note, plenty of women initially find giving oral sex disgusting too. I think we can all guess that Jill would have some big word to describe the unique kind of violation it would be to show such women Jill’s own article with the genders swapped. Spitters aren’t just quitters – deep down, they’re hateful bigots who hate all men and want to keep us subjugated! I mean, what other explanation could there possibly be?

    I’ll stop writing now but you could have such a field day with this article that I’ve not yet read Tamen’s links, but I will. I’ll just say that, at least in this article, Jill seems to have some strange views on relationships – she deals with a difference of preferences by “threatening” to leave. If this had been less carefully worded, it could easily have been abusive. As it stands, it just makes me wonder how much she values and understands genuine love and care and intimacy in romantic relationships.

  9. Tamen,
    “Some of you may remember the scorn heaped on the blogger Emporiasexus when he suggested the same.”

    I remember that. That closes the loop on this hypocrisy of theirs. This is what happens with this kind of gender chauvinism – when you privilege a woman’s sexual demands and when you privilege her control of the sexual encounter – you get these kinds of collisions.

  10. Schala,
    ” I mean, wtf?”

    WTF? Really? Isn’t it obvious? This kind of person is only concerned with dominance. In this case it’s the moral high ground. This tactic is more associated with the traditional female gender role (“TFGR”?) a la the Moral Guardian and If Momma Ain’t Happy ain’t Nobody Happy, but that is a kink of our particular culture. Men sure do it too, just in other cultures.

  11. Tamen, i am not finding that emporiasexus post you are refrring too. Found lots of other great stuff of his, but not that. can you help?

  12. Navin Kumar:

    Gingko, most men aren’t – or weren’t – aware of this disease, so whatever Jill said was right for it’s time.

    You can get other diseases from unprotected cunnilingus. But there is another problem with Jill’s condemnation of men refusing to perform cunnilingus.
    Let us say a man doesn’t want to go down on a woman, because he finds the act digusting. As far as I know, the primary biological function of disgust is warning about health hazards. So whether the man in question knows the medicine of sexual transmitted diseases or not, his disgust alarms him of a potential danger.
    Of course there is a huge difference between being disgusted by the sight of a thing and finding putting it in your mouth gross.

  13. WTF? Really? Isn’t it obvious? This kind of person is only concerned with dominance. In this case it’s the moral high ground. This tactic is more associated with the traditional female gender role (“TFGR”?) a la the Moral Guardian and If Momma Ain’t Happy ain’t Nobody Happy, but that is a kink of our particular culture. Men sure do it too, just in other cultures.

    But its from there http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Women%27s+negotiation+of+cunnilingus+in+college+hookups+and%E2%80%A6-a0278880596

    I could expect bias from Jill, but not from peer reviewed stuff (though it obviously does exist, it shouldn’t).

  14. OMG,

    I can’t believe the kyriarchical misogyny on display here…

    Jill is your superior, you can’t argue the emotional intelligence of a white womyn who, though years younger than many of you knows the oppression of slave women (POC’s are women because due to hbd science, they are closer to men, only white womyn get the y) and has the insight to make it her oppression….

    can you believe this misogynistic filth????

    http://stonerwithaboner.wordpress.com/2011/09/15/lick-that-kitty-you-misogynistic-douchebag/

    of, course Mr. Ginko, I paid for the privilege to be penetrated by an empowered straponista, you should try it yourself if you can’t get over your internal misogyny. You sound like that repellent stonerwithaboner fella who would probably pay for the rapey PIV sex he so desires but can’t get because he gives off rays of hate as evidenced from the above article. (and he can’t afford it with his “job” of collecting cans from the roadside.) He is so filthy even the MRA’s want nothing to do with him, he is the lowest of the low, evewn worse than a Nice Guy ™ –he is a MGTOW…

    and as far as the bloomfontosis fellow, horrible….

    He made Amanda Marcotte upset. That is far worse than killing half of India’s female population with female infanticide…

  15. …and I’m giving you one last chance, misogynists…

    Amanda Marcotte dislikes facial hair, shave that filthy dead animal off your face. To do otherwise is to promote RAPE CULTURE!!!

    And, remember, it is because of RAPE CULTURE that pornographic actresses face the cultural stigmata of shaving their armpits and pubic areas. You men are evil…

    and so is this womyn (I almost want to call her a women for her transgressions but feminism 3.03 subsection zh6454545 won’t let me.)

    http://www.feminisnt.com/

    I had to spend, hours, hours scrubbing her images from my hard drive when Hugo Schwyzer and Robert Jensen told me she wasn’t appropriate fantasy material for a male feminist ally type guy.

  16. Ginkgo: I believe this was the first post by emporiasexus which where he formulated that “I am entitled to sexual pleasure from some woman, somewhere, at some time.” with some caveats – the most important being “I am admittedly not entitled to sexual pleasure from her. And I’m not necessarily entitled to sexual pleasure from her, or her, or her.”

    Although I am not sure as I seem to recall that he had a blog under a his “real” name previous to the emporiasexus blog and it might be on that blog it initially was posted.

    He follows up and tries to clarify with several later posts.

    Oh, and thank you very much for almost luring me into re-reading those “entitled men” giga-threads at Clarisse Thorn’s blog – which I absolutely do not have time to at the moment :/

    Schala: I believe one of the authors of that cited paper is Nicola Gavey. I have on other threads here and on FC commented about a book of hers about rape and her conclusion that on can’t use the technique of gender reversal to judge whether a situation is rape or not. She used as an example a situation where a woman performed oral sex on a sleeping man without his consent.

    I could expect bias from Jill, but not from peer reviewed stuff (though it obviously does exist, it shouldn’t).

    Well, that all depends on the peers, doesn’t it?

  17. Thanks Tamen. Giga-threads is a good description. I never ventured in . They got so much praise that I hope they are archived soemwhere.

  18. Tamen. I have something very exciting to tell you and an oportunity for you to have contact with someone that can get and wants to get the real rape numbers out there and wants to correspond with you on what you find. Would you like to exchange emails through genderratic? I can send my email to them and they can give mine to you through email. If you want to remain anonymous vis a vis me as well you could make an anonymous email adress and we could talk through that. I`ll put you in contact with the person in question.

  19. Oh yeah I’ve been seeing this story go around a bit today.

    And as such I’ve already seen theories that Douglas is likely mistaken about how he contracted it.

    I guess we’ll just have to wait until there is a sudden spike in lesbians developing throat cancer….

  20. Cicero, feel free to ask the bloggers here to either forward your mail or your email-address to me and I’ll give you a ping as soon as I can.

  21. Tamen: “Well, that all depends on the peers, doesn’t it?”

    Exactly. When all the peers are ideologues just like the authors the peer review system is a bit pointless. And when a field is highly politicised it ensures only those who hold similar views ever progress far enough to become ‘peers’.

    Peer review is a highly flawed system in many ways; even though it’s the best system the sciences have (http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=194989). The answer isn’t to get rid of it but to readjust the layman (and in some cases professional) opinion that just because something has been peer reviewed it doesn’t mean that we suspend any critical assessment of it. It may still be junk. Hell, entire fields may be ‘peer reviewed’ and still be junk.

  22. Adiabat, I can think of several fields where the dead weight of conventional wisdom is in a deathfight with ne w insights. The pre-clovis controversy in Anerican archeology is one example. Even though site after site comes up that predates clovis, there are diehards who dismiss all of it. That despite the fact that linguists have always said there is no way to squeeze the observed linguistic diversity into a 12,000 BP startpoint point for dispersal. And speaking of linguistics, the Ckomskyanists have been in a death struggle with the empriricists for 30 years now, spinning ever new theoretical models to patch the holes descriptive lingusits have been poking in the standard models.

  23. Generative grammar is, it occurs to me, quite similar to feminism, in that it falls apart under close examination and comparison with the real world. Its logic does not hold up under scrutiny, and it becomes anti-science in an attempt at self-preservation.

  24. I’ve been an outspoken proponent of equal rights and responsibilities for many years. I’ve lost 2 jobs to my Men’s Rights Activism. I’ve got one of the oldest, if not the oldest MRA website on the web. That said, I will not get the HPV vaccine and I would discourage anybody from getting it. The prevalence of adverse reactions is hushed up, it does not confer lasting immunity, only covers 3 of the HPV viruses, there’s another company that will have a cure for all forms of HPV, and we all get cancers, but they turn into a diagnosis of cancer when our immune systems are no longer able to suppress them, and there are many ways to prevent and even cure cancers. So rather than advocate to make the HPV vaccine available to boys and men, I would campaign to educate women and girls to the real risks associated with the vaccine and why they should just say no to the Prescription Drug Cartel.

  25. As an interesting sidenote from an article about HPV (spurred on by Michael Douglas statements) in a major Norwegian newspaper (translated and emphasized by me):

    While women traditionally have been more at risk due to the deadly and more prevalent cervical cancer, men have a higher risk than women to be infected by HPV through oral sex.

    Why is not known with any certainty.

    One theory is that HPV is more contagious from women to men than from men to women.

    Another theory – which is the one chief physician Sørbye hears from the gynecologists he has spoken with – is that men perform oral sex more often than women.

    (A google-translated copy of this article can be read here)

    Could it be some cultural differences when it comes to oral sex, because according to the american feminists menioned the situation is pretty dire in the opposite direction? Kinsey Institute do find that women report giving oral sex slightly more often than they receive oral sex, although it’s not a dramatic difference and 16-17 years old and 60 years and older women receive more often than they give.
    Perhaps the solution for Rosenberg, Filipovic, Paskin and Moss is to move to a Scandinavian country?

  26. Oh, and slide 65 here from Durex sexual wellbeing global survey 07|08:

    An equal number of men and women report that receiving oral sex is part of their sex life. An equal number of men and women report that giving oral sex is part of their sex life. More men than women would like giving oral sex to be part of their sex life.

  27. “I’ve got one of the oldest, if not the oldest MRA website on the web.”

    That’s you??!! Your site is excelent. Aren’t you down the road in Olympia or somewhere like that?

    Would you like to talk about getting some legislative action going?

  28. Ginkgo, thanks for those articles. I’ll read them the next time I get tired of seeing Chomsky cited seriously in a scholarly work (so pretty soon then).

    I’ve been aware of a certain article on The Backlash for several years now about The significance of male hair, which I never really thought about in connection with men’s rights until now. Now that I know that The Backlash is a men’s rights site, I’ll probably explore the archives as and when I have time.

    I just always thought it odd that an employer would fire (or refuse to hire) someone on the basis of his beard or long hair, after telling him “It’s only hair.” Same with a wife or girlfriend. If it’s “only hair” to the man, why is it so important to them that it be removed? The article answered that question for me.

  29. Pingback: They won’t be happy until every low status man has throat cancer… | stonerwithaboner

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