MALE DISPOSABILITY – Mary P. Koss and influencing a government entity to erase male victims of rape

SUMMARY:

1. Mary P. Koss insists on a definition of rape that conceals the incidence of female-on-male rape.

2. The center for disease control (CDC) is a government entity charged with serving the entire public and all citizens of the United States equally.

3. There is an appearance that Mary P. Koss has by her association with the CDC influenced it to formulate findings in a way that favors one group of citizens over another, that in fact significantly disadvantages the second group of citizens.

4. Anyone in a position of public trust, including any position supported by public funds, has a responsibility to prevent her or his private opinions from compromising the mission of the organization she or he serves to serve all citizens equally.

5. There is an appearance that rather than preventing her personal opinions from compromising the mission of the organization she is associated with, she has allowed those personal opinions to influence the function of that public entity.

DISCUSSION:

Mary P. Koss is a widely-quoted writer on the incidence of rape. Her methods and her claims have been controversial. In 2009 a controversy developed around a paper of hers – articles and threads here, here, and here.

She is an influential writer on the subject and her methods and results deserve scrutiny.

In a post earlier this year commenter Tamen noted a tendency in Koss to minimize the scope and incidence of rape of males, especially by women. He said at the time:

“However, Victory_Disease on Reddit made me aware of this paper by Mary P Koss: Detecting the Scope of Rape : A Review of Prevalence Research Methods which show that it’s not simply a matter of focusing on female victims, but rather a conscious effort to exclude male victims of rape from the term rape.”

He specifically noted a section in that paper where she says:

“Although consideration of male victims is within the scope of the legal statutes, it is important to restrict the term rape to instances where male victims were penetrated by offenders. It is inappropriate to consider as a rape victim a man who engages in unwanted sexual intercourse with a woman.
p. 206”

He goes on to point how she chooses terms that emphasize or exaggerate male agency and minimize or trivialize female agency. He finishes by noting a paragraph in which she recommends a formulation of “rape” that is gynonormative, such that if the crime does not involve penetration of the victim, it is not rape. The effect if not the intent is to erase the crime of rape by envelopment.

Later Tamen noted a similarity between Koss’ position and the one reflected in the CDC’s formulation of rape in its NISVS 2010 Report. In the course of pursuing the matter with the CDC (the text of his correspondence with the CDC is at the end of this post.), and getting a dismissively tautological and circular answer, he stumbled across a piece of information that may bear on the similarity in positions he had noted.

This is the history of association between Mary P. Koss and the CDC he found:

1996: Expert Panel Member, “Definitions of Sexual Assault,” Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

2003- : Selected to direct the Sexual Violence Applied Research Advisory Group, VAWNET.org, the national online resource on violence against women funded by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention

2003- : Member, team of expert advisors, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention on teen partner violence

2003- : Panel of Experts, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, National Center for Injury Prevention and Control on scales to measure intimate partner violence, resulted in the publication of CDC Intimate Partner Violence compendium, 2005

2003-4: Consultant, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, CDC Intimate Partner Violence compendium, 2005 IPV Compendium on assessment of sexual violence and inclusion as recommended standard assessments in the field of two Koss-authored assessments (Sexual Experiences Survey-victimization, and Sexual Experiences Survey-perpetration)

 

Again, Mary P. Koss is entitled to hold any personal opinions she chooses, however odious. She has however no right to use her position of trust to impose these personal and private opinions on public policy or results of research intended to form that public policy. Furthermore public entities with which she or anyone is associated have a responsibility also to ensure that the barrier between private and personal opinion and public policy is maintained and safeguarded.

If this were simply an isolated instance of one person misusing her position, it would be a small matter and simple to correct. It is however part of a larger consensus and pattern of distortion of evidence and erasure when it concerns male victims of rape in general and especially male victims of female rapists. The probelm is quite structurla and goes to the locla level where evidence is distorted by either a failure or a refusal to report and record even quite clear cases of rape as rape, as in the case of this mother who sodomized her two-year-old son so forcibly with a vibrator that surgery was necessary to remove it. Note how the incident is being charged: as child abuse and sexual misconduct with a minor rather than child rape. If sodomizing an infant so severley that it requires surgery to remove the rape device is not child rape, then nothing is.

Absolutely vile.

 

Tamen’s correspondence wiht the CDC as posted on Reddit Men’s Rights:

CDC’s response to whether they will categorize “being made to penetrate someone else” in future reports (self.MensRights)

submitted 2 days ago* by Tamen_

I had a mail account failure and forgot/missed that I a year ago sent this mail to the CDC:

Hi,

One finding of the NISVS 2010 Report which was not reported anywhere in press releases and media (as far as I could see) was that 1.1% of men reported being made to penetrate someone else the last 12 months. That 1.1% of women reported being raped the last 12 months puts this into a perspective which goes very much against common beliefs about male victimization.

Was this finding not interesting or conclusive enough to at least mention in press releases?

The lifetime numbers differs more. Did CDC look into why there was such a difference in lifetime prevalency numbers and numbers for the last 12 months for male victims of “being made to penetrate someone else”?

Will future CDC Reports continue to keep “being made to penetrate someone else” as a category separate from rape or will they be put together/seen as the same as in the new FBI definition of rape?

Best regards, Xxxxxx Yyyyyy

A week later I got the response (my emphasis):

Mr. Yyyyyy,

Thank you for your interest in the NISVS Survey. The NISVS subject matters experts have provided the following information in response to your inquiry:

We understand your concern that the 12 month prevalence for Made to Penetrate was not included in the press release. Unfortunately, due to space limitation in a press release, we were not able to highlight many of the important findings. This information, however, was included in main summary report. In addition, we are currently working on preparing a number of more in-depth reports to follow our first summary report, including one that focuses specifically on sexual violence.

With regards to the definitional issues you mentioned, Made to Penetrate is a form of sexual violence that is distinguished from rape. Being made to penetrate represents times when the victim was made to, or there was an attempt to make them, sexually penetrate someone else (i.e., the perpetrator) without the victim’s consent. In contrast, rape represents times when the victim, herself or himself, was sexually penetrated or there was an attempt to do so. In both rape and made to penetrate situations, this may have happened through the use of physical force (such as being pinned or held down, or by the use of violence) or threats to physically harm; it also includes times when the victim was drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent.

In summary, rape victimization constitutes times when the victim is penetrated. Made to penetrate are incidents where the victim is forced to penetrate their perpetrator, so does not meet the definition of rape.

Appendix C on page 106 of the report lists the victimization questions. As you will see, the questions were asked in such a way that the perpetrator was the one being penetrated by the victim in made to penetrate cases, not a third party. For example, “how many people have ever used physical force or threats of physical harm to make you have vaginal sex with them?” Or “how many people have ever used physical force or threats of physical harm to make you perform anal sex, meaning they made you put your penis into their anus?” Or “when you were drunk, high, drugged or passed out and unable to consent, how many people ever made you receive oral sex, meaning that they put their mouth on your {if male: penis}?”

The FBI definition of rape does not apply here – made to penetrate as we have defined it is distinct from rape and should not be included in a definition of rape.

Until the special reports are available and/or the data set is ready for public use, if there are additional specific questions we can answer, we would be happy to do so. We appreciate your interest in these data.

Sincerely, CDC NISVS Team

Apparently they thought my question about whether “being made to penetrate someone else” would be categorized as rape as per the FBI definition which was revealed shortly after the NISVS 2010 Report was published was due to my inability to read the definitions of rape and “being amde to penetrate someone else” in the report itself.

Apparently it is self-evident for them that it’s not rape and hence they are perfectly aligned with Mary P Koss recommendations (“It is inappropriate to consider as a rape victim a man who engages in unwanted sexual intercourse with a woman” page 206 in the full article) also in future surveys and doesn’t plan to align the definition with the “new” FBI definition of rape – which can and in my view should be interpreted to include rape by envelopment.

I know that that paper on how to measure rape prevalency by Mary P Koss has been cited by CDC in other contexts (Reference 7).

I decided to look at Mary P. Koss’ CV:

1996: Expert Panel Member, “Definitions of Sexual Assault,” Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

2003- : Selected to direct the Sexual Violence Applied Research Advisory Group, VAWNET.org, the national online resource on violence against women funded by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention

2003- : Member, team of expert advisors, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention on teen partner violence

2003- : Panel of Experts, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, National Center for Injury Prevention and Control on scales to measure intimate partner violence, resulted in the publication of CDC Intimate Partner Violence compendium, 2005

2003-4: Consultant, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, CDC Intimate Partner Violence compendium, 2005 IPV Compendium on assessment of sexual violence and inclusion as recommended standard assessments in the field of two Koss-authored assessments (Sexual Experiences Survey-victimization, and Sexual Experiences Survey-perpetration)

No wonder it’s self-evident for the CDC that it is inappropriate to consider as a rape victim a man who engages in unwanted sexual intercourse with a woman.

Edited for readability and quote-fixing

Edited again: The title of course should be: CDC’s response to whether they will categorize “being made to penetrate someone else” as rape in future reports

165 thoughts on “MALE DISPOSABILITY – Mary P. Koss and influencing a government entity to erase male victims of rape

  1. Thanks for that URL Tamen. I can’t get it to come up here where I am but I will try again later.

  2. It is inappropriate to consider as a rape victim a man who engages in unwanted sexual intercourse with a woman.

    This sentence is a real gem of feminist propaganda. Notice the inversion of active and passive roles, the way she makes the man out to be the active party in his own raping. And notice the way she tacks the word “unwanted” in front of the female subject instead of in front of the male subject. If you just took this sentence by itself, it would actually mean that the man was raping the woman. It’s actually true in the most literal sense – rapists are not to be considered victims!

    The incredibly awkward, unnatural wording of this sentence looks like a bad translation from a foreign language and makes me think that she spent a good deal of time trying to force it to sound like the opposite of what she actually means by it. She probably started out with something like this:

    It is inappropriate to consider a woman who engages in unwanted sexual intercourse with a man as a rapist .

    This woman is as guilty of lying as they get.

  3. dungone, that sentence is pure rape apology.

    Hey, can you you go done and look at the Gebder Roles – Hypoagenccy: Neoteny…. post? It’s based on an observation you made here in comments a few months ago and I’d like your take and maybe some expansion on it.

  4. well that will just descend into “not all feminists are like that”

    even though i’ve seen zero feminists argue, that the definition of rape being solely unwanted penetration of a female with a penis is amoral.

  5. No quite the opposite. The not-all-feminists-are-like-that is about dismissing something as a problem in feminism as long as it’s not universal in feminism. Explicitly describing something as a problem with some feminists preempts that.

  6. i’m saying feminists opposition of rape being amoral is universal.

  7. Reubenm welcome!
    JE, welcome back.

    “i’m saying feminists opposition of rape being amoral is universal.”

    That’s kind of a tangle, but I know what you are saying. There are some feminists who have shouted and shamed each other into condeming female rape of men on nthe same grounds and in the same terms as male rape of females – Feministe is the place that coems to mind – but it stands out in my mind and that tells me how rare that level of honesty is in the feminist community. Then you have the feminists who full-throatedly condemn all rpae and define it in the same terms for all victims – and they are usually the ones the others call anti-feminist or shout down or just ignore into silence.

  8. For those who didn’t know the whole story on Mary P. Koss’ history on Rape study and why the CDC is so eager to listen to her:

    According to Christina Hoff Sommers in “Who Stole Feminism? How Women Have Betrayed Women”, Mary P. Koss was the research designer for the Ms. Magazine survey in 1985 that created the much-lauded 1 in 4 and 1 in 6 figures we see today.

    Not only did the definition of rape include any time the woman was given alcohol or drugs in order to inflate the number – regardless of whether the sex afterwards was actually coerced or consensual. Likewise, many of the questions regarding rape on the Koss report ask about having sex “when you didn’t want to”, rather than having “when you didn’t consent.”, ignoring the fact that many women have sex when they “don’t want to” in order to build relationships, maintain them, or get pregnant.

    As a follow up they asked several questions including “do you believe that you were raped?” and asking if the respondent had had sex with the same man subsequently. 73% of the respondents said that they do not believe that they were raped, and 42% had sex with the same man again subsequently.

    Koss decided that the women she surveyed (all Ms. readers of around college age) clearly didn’t know if they were raped or not, and their assessment of the experience shouldn’t be allowed to get in the way of the results she wanted. So instead of the number of 1 in 30 rape victims that a critical reading her data suggests, she chose to report 1 in 4.

    She later in response to a series of critical articles (“The Making of an Epidemic” in the research journal The Blade) about her study painted these women as confused victims who didn’t understand their own experience. Ones who were, because they were so acclimatized to the threat of male violence, unable to see rape for what it is. She disregarded her “belief about whether the respondents were raped” and “further sexual encounters” data on that basis. She also tried to make implications about the prevalence of serial rapists based on the “second liaison” statistics.

    She also insisted, despite the vague language that her survey represented rapes according to the ‘Legal Definition”, despite the loaded and vague questions until she was pushed hard on it in the same series of critical articles. (Hoff Sommers, 1994, p.210-223)

    Farrell does a great job of breaking this particular down on page 316 of the updated edition of The Myth of Male Power.

    In my own analysis, Koss has been pushing to create an image of a Rape Epidemic since 1985, based on a political agenda to make women seem like overwhelming victims of male violence – even if it requires her to ignore the stated experiences of women, ignore her own data, and misrepresent the law to do so.

    Her actions imply highly Foucaultian view that feminists have a higher consciousness than most women, and that other women are to “mentally colonized” to be allowed to interpret their won experiences.

    Her deliberate attempt to erase male victims is just doubling down on the same political agenda: make Women look like helpless victims, make all Men look like rapists. Maintain total control over the narrative.

    Koss was hand picked by Steinem to conduct the survey after she published a famed but often mis-attributed quote: “Rape represents an extreme behaviour, but one that is within a continuum of normal male behaviour within the culture”. She has built her career on the belief that male sexuality is essentially Rapine.

  9. Brian that is great info. Am I right in understanding what you wrote as saying the ones who answered the study where ALL readers of MS. Magazine? That could easily inflate the numbers. It would not be surprising that a higher number of women that had been raped would gravitate towards feminism for example and it would not be surprising for feminist women to define cases that where in fact not rape as rape.

  10. It would not be surprising that a higher number of women that had been raped would gravitate towards feminism

    It would not be surprising if a higher number of women who gravitated towards feminism would already have had similar views on sex as Mary Koss did when she ran the survey.

    Koss is clearly a master of twisted language and cooked statistics. Her question was “do you believe that you were raped?” The key word in that was believe. That question was designed to exploit confirmation bias to the greatest extent possible. Survey questions like this have to be asked in more than one way to neutralize the effect of people being prone to answering such questions in the affirmative. For example if you ask one group of people, “Are you happy with your life?” and a little while later ask the same exact group, “Are you not happy with your life?” the majority will always say yes to both questions.

  11. Jake, all respondents were college or University-going women subscribing to Ms. It was thus highly self-selected to educated feminist women.

  12. “@mensrightsrdt on 2013-04-18 at 3:28 pm said:
    I hope it’s not terrible form to link my own engagement with two antirape agencies: (NISVS and OAESV)”

    It’s not bad form at all here, in fact it’s a welcome contribution! Thanks!

  13. Brian and Dr. Jake, welcome!

    Brian, that is very interesting, all of it. Time after time we see that personal connections and cliques drove doctrinal development in feminism, both as a movement and also as an institutional force.

  14. And Brian, I really think a lot of your blog and the articles I read quickly, the whole site really – enough that I added you to the blog roll.

  15. @Ginko: Thanks. I’m not sure “welcome back” is in order though, I’m usually around I just don’t say anything if I don’t have anything to say.

  16. Thank you so much, Ginkgo, I consider Genderratic to be one of the most important sites for me. This place is a goldmine of useful information and viewpoints. I never ceased to be impressed and challenged here!

  17. “And Brian, I really think a lot of your blog and the articles I read quickly, the whole site really – enough that I added you to the blog roll.”

    Brains blog is awesome. His blog is very important for several reasons. One is that he is the only blogger I have come across in the manosphere and MRA sphere that has extensive experience from the alternative spitirual world. That IMO is THE place where you find the most extreme forms of shaming of masculinity and the most extreme feminising of men. The alternative spiritual community is where you will find the most explicit talk of the benefits of matriarchy and explicit arguments for female superiority. It is also, however, one of the places where you will find the most men that are starting to wake up to that reality and shed of shame for their masculinity and become aware of MRA issues. I have found that world to be by far the most uncouncious and concious arround these issues. It was from those kinds of website I was first informed about the manosphere. The alternative world is also a very quickly growing sphere that is going to be extremely influential in the long term. They will for example be defining for the next developments in “game”:

    http://www.authenticmanprogram.com/igtp/InnerGameStickingPoints.pdf

    They also do what IMO is great masculinity and feminity work. That work will be offensive to someone who believes gender is entierely socially constructed but it does offer those people a lot the stuff they want like aceptance for mens emotions and vulnerability and integration of mens feminine side and respect for variations within peoples natural variations in masculinity and femininity COMBINED with a development of masculine strenghts:

    http://www.masculinity-movies.com/articles

    The trend I am seeing is that those ideas are growing very fast amongst people who are into yoga, meditation, qigong etc. Which is pretty natural considering what those traditions are actually based on. I find it odd how you have thousands of people online discussing masculinity and femininity without delving into the philosophical and practical tradition that has thousands of years of expereince in studying exactly the dynamic between the feminine and the masculine and is based on the wisdom of that interplay, Taoism. Almost verything I`ve read in the sphere I recognize from eastern yin yang and shiva shakti teachings.

    Brian is also very good at explaining the ideas of the mansophere in a form that is much more understandable and less offensive to most people. “Evil” manosphere ideas just don`t sound so evil when Brian writes about them. He also has extensive knowledge of western academic psychology and can explain manosphere ideas in those terms. For example he can break down the difference between Athol Kays extremely successfull marriage advice and the horrendously ineffective conventional marriage counseling advice in academic terms. Those skills are extremely valuable when the manosphere gets serious mainstream attention which it is starting to do:

    http://verusconditio.wordpress.com/2013/03/27/the-knowledge-is-spreading-ii/

    http://verusconditio.wordpress.com/2013/04/02/the-knowledge-is-spreading-iii/

    So IMO Brians writings will become much more important in the future and he has a high chance of getting picked up by the mainstream media as a sensible non offensive manosphere and MRA voice.

  18. Thanks, Dr. Ramore, you really are too kind! You and I must talk in another forum where you use a different username, and I suspect I know which one. If I am wrong, then really have my number!

    I am hoping to create what essentially will be a Red-Pill-to-Pyschology dictionary as a wordpress blog. That project is slated to start in May. I’ve found a lot of Men I talk to need to be able to communicate with therapists and counsellors, but lack the vocabulary to do so.

    To be honest, some days I worry I am a little too inoffensive with my voice, but I believe every movement needs a few compassionate moderates. Honestly, I would much rather build up Men – and ideologies friendly to them -than tear Feminism down.

    I feel that Men (and free-thinking Women) ought to be informed about Game, the MHRA, MGTOW, Mythopoetism, Red Pill Marriage, and conscientious Masculine Traditionalism, and have someone encourage them to explore what is right for them – whatever that choice might be.

    In any case, I am very flattered by your assessment, and all of your kind welcomes here!

  19. Jake, all respondents were college or University-going women subscribing to Ms. It was thus highly self-selected to educated feminist women.

    This is incorrect; although it was a survey of college students, it was not limited to Ms subscribers.

    Regarding the OP, it’s ridiculous that the government won’t refer to forced envelopment as rape. It clearly is rape.

  20. Mr. Rideout:

    Actually, Mary P. Koss’s original survey holds up (at least if you trust her data). Daran, of Feminist Critics did a whole series on this study and, as far as I remember Ampersand even linked the original questions.

    http://www.feministcritics.org/blog/2008/02/28/whats-her-point/

    Now, if you go through that series of posts (linked to in the link above) you will find there are legitimate criticisms of Koss. But the behavior described in her questions DID INDEED match the legal definition of rape in effect in that State at that time.
    So, the women were indeed describing being raped whether they called it that or not.

    Now you may not know who Daran is, or be aware of the Feminist Critics blog. Needless to say they have debunked so many feminist studies I can hardly keep count, but alas, the main criticism of Koss by MacDonald et.all does not hold up. This is one of the few studies they’ve ended up *mostly* defending.

  21. I will quote:
    “Mac Donald falsely implies that Koss was using some definition of her own to determine whether they were raped. What Mac Donald doesn’t tell her readers is that Koss asked her subjects if they had experienced actions that State law classified as rape.

    Koss’s study had serious flaws. Her survey instrument was highly ambiguous,…

    I wouldn’t call it “highly ambiguous’; It did have some ambiguous questions. It’s not unusual for the seminal study in any new field of research to have flaws which later studies remedy. Koss’s findings have been replicated numerous times, and the ambiguity in her questions have not been found to be an issue.

    …But the most powerful refutation of Koss’s research came from her own subjects: 73 percent of the women whom she characterized as rape victims said that they hadn’t been raped. Further—though it is inconceivable that a raped woman would voluntarily have sex again with the fiend who attacked her—42 percent of Koss’s supposed victims had intercourse again with their alleged assailants.

    Mac Donald’s second point is an argument from personal incredulity. Regarding her initial point, she misstates Koss’ finding. Ampersand, responds to an earlier rehash of the same misrepresentation:

    73% answered no to the question, “it was definitely rape”; it’s not safe to conclude from that they’re sure it was not rape!”

  22. I respectfully disagree, as the text of the questions used in the survey does not establish consent or lack of consent… only desire during the initiation of the encounter. “When you didn’t want to” (which is the phrasing) does not mean “when you didn’t consent to.” I have had sex when I didn’t “want to” in order not to disappoint my partner. That does not mean I was raped.

    That may seem like mincing words, but you must remember that this is a survey. Every phrase will be interpreted differently by each respondent. If I would respond like that, then many others might as well.

    Rough sex often begins with things like pinning and grappling, and if a person had the sex when they didn’t care to, but still consented (remember, consent is not an emotion thing, it is a behaviour) it is not rape, by most definitions.

    Question eight of the survey “Have you had sexual intercourse when you didn’t want to because a man gave you alcohol or drugs?” is unbelievably ambiguous. That could mean anything from forcing a woman to have sex after spiking her drink with GHB to having pity sex with a guy at a bar because he was sweet and bought you a drink.

    Eliminate question eight along and the number drops from one in four to one in seven.

    Now, I understand we clearly cannot remove the results of question eight entirely, but at the time Ohio state law’s definition of rape specifically stated it was rape if the victim had been administered (that in and of itself is a very problematic word) drugs or intoxicant… excepting when an individual was plied with alcohol or drugs with hopes that lowered inhibition would lead to successful seduction. Thus even if we look past the “when you didn’t want to” the legal definitions of the time and this question are a significant mismatch.

    The follow up questions and their answers were:
    It was definitely rape: 27%
    The event resulted from a miscommunication: 49%
    It may have been a crime but it was not rape: 14%
    I do not feel victimized 11%

    That is not 73% unsure of being raped. I am unsure was not a recorded result. That is 27% believing they were raped, 14% sexually assaulted but by their experience clearly not raped, 11% rejecting the idea that they were raped, and 49% having not clearly communicated non-consent, thus their partners had no criminal intent or means of knowing that consent was not given or withdrawn.

    You cannot simply ignore that and declare that 89% of the women responding to questions 8-10 of the survey were raped, because they cannot judge their own experience. The 49% who had a miscommunication chose that option in spite of other options put forward to them of the four have voiced the opinion that they were not raped, if they were, they would have chose that, or to characterize it as a crime other than rape.

    Also, if you are going to use Ohio state laws for “legal definition” you cannot project the findings of “matching the legal definition of rape” onto the nation. Koss herself admitted to later coming to understand that the definitions she used were ambiguous regarding phraseology and correspondence to legal definition in “The Making of an Epidemic” in the Blade.

    Also the 1 in 4 figure includes both completed (15.4%) and attempted (12.7%) rapes (including question 8), yet the common summaries of the report include 1 in 4 women “Will be raped” by the time they reach college age. This is a misrepresentation of the facts shown by the survey. Nuanced, yes, but with a connoatatively charged word like “rape” nuance does matter.

    Listen, sexual assault is a horrible thing, I know, I’ve lived through it. I would never discount the pain and suffering sexual violence caused to any human being. But we serve nobody by distorting the facts. It trivializes rape and sexual assault, rather than making it seem more like a threat. Especially by misrepresenting its frequency.

    We need real figures, not a fusion bad science and yellow journalism, ones involving both sexes to treat the survivors in a way that is humane, reasonable, and create a real dialogue between the sexes.

    I would propose eliminating the distinction between “rape” and other forms of violent sexual assault, so that the matter of envelopment, penetration by an object, etc. is a complete non-issue. The definition of what is “rape” with all of its ideologically charged connotations, will stop being an issue – all human beings violated sexually will be treated together under a single definition whose long-term impact we can examine on a gender-equal basis.

    If needed, we could grade this based on severity and potential impact, like we do theft, murder, or assault.

  23. Jake, I have read a few sources that have characterized the survey as to Ms. readers. I am willing to accept that I may be wrong on this point.

  24. Many of you may be aware the the UK uses the archaic common law definition of rape in it’s Sexual Offences Act 2003 – it defines rape in a way that requires that the perpetrator must have a penis.

    The brits have their own version of the NCVS called CSEW – Crime Survey for England and Wales. The most recent one was published January 2013. The Ministry of Justice, Home Office and the Office for National Statistics published in January a report looking specifically at the sexual offences part of the CSEW as well as police reports, court proceeding, sentencing, duration of cases, offender managemend and offender histories (recidivate rates, multiple convictions etc.). The report was published January 10th 2013 and is called
    An Overview of Sexual Offending in England and Wales.

    Let’s examine to what extent this report counts male victims of rape (including rape by envelopment) to see if it’s possible to estimate the number of male victims in the UK in a similar manner to how one could find the male number of male rape victims in the US by looking at the “being made to penetrate” category.

    Rape and Assault by penetration are grouped by the report in a category called: “Most serious sexual offence”

    A man being forced to have oral, vaginal or anal intercourse with a woman without his consent is a victim of sexual assault by the law The definition of sexual assault is:

    Section 3 of the Act makes it an offence for any male or female to intentionally touch another person sexually without his or her consent. A person found guilty of this offence could be sent to prison for a maximum of ten years.

    Meaning that by UK law a man raped by a woman forcing him to have unprotected vaginal sex with her without his consent are put in the same category as a woman being touched on the butt by a man – not to defend the latter, but there is a difference between those two.

    It’s even worse in the CSEW survey because there it’s being categorized as “Other sexual offences”, which includes exposure , sexual activity with children (excluding rape and sexual assault) and sexual threatening behaviour

    In fact when I look at the questionare used for the CSEW survey they base their findings on I actually found a set of question which male victims of rape by envelopment may answer affirmative on:

    Since you were 16, has anyone ever forced you to have sexual intercourse or take part in some other sexual act, when you were not capable of consent or when you made it clear you did not want to?

    By sexual intercourse we mean vaginal, anal or oral penetration.

    This may have been a partner, a family member, a friend or work colleague, someone you knew casually, or a stranger.

    If the respondent answered yes to the above they are asked another question (NIPV35AA- NIPV35AF):

    You said that someone has forced you to have sexual intercourse or take part in some other sexual act when you were not capable of consent or when you made it clear you did not want to. What did they do to you?

    If this has happened more than once since you were 16, please select all those that apply.

    We need this level of detail to allow us to classify the exact type of sexual assault experienced.

    Penetrated your [vagina or anus/anus] with their penis

    Penetrated your [vagina or anus/anus] with an object (including fingers)

    Penetrated your mouth with their penis

    Did some other sex act not described above

    Don’t know

    Don’t want to answer

    Here one would think that any male victims of “being made to penetrate someone else” must answer “4 . Did some sex act not described above” to be counted correctly. However, the question itself listed “some other sex act” as something separate from sexual intercourse – thus perhaps confusing the respondent. Conceivable victims of a forced kiss, a grope and so on could also answer yes here as those could be understood to be some sex act other than intercourse. As I understand it respondents are more likely to respond to questions which describes the acts rather than the name of the act or a bag-name of a set of acts. It also really doesn’t matter that this question was under the heading “SERIOUS SEXUAL ASSAULT”, because if the answer is “4″ then it’s being put in the category “Other sexual offences” in the summary, tables and charts in the report.

    Contrast that with this question asked under the section: “SERIOUS SEXUAL ASSAULT”:

    Since the age of 16, has ANYONE ever done any of the following things to you, when you made it clear that you did not agree or when you were not capable of consent? This may have been a partner, a family member, someone you knew casually, or a stranger.

    Penetrated your [vagina or anus/anus] with their penis, even if only slightly

    Penetrated your [vagina or anus/anus] with an object (including fingers) even if only slightly

    Penetrated your mouth with their penis even if only slightly

    ATTEMPTED to penetrate your [vagina or anus/anus] with their penis, but did not succeed

    ATTEMPTED to penetrate your [vagina or anus/anus] with an object (including fingers) but did not succeed

    ATTEMPTED to penetrate your mouth with their penis but did not succeed

    This is very specific, just about every possible combination of a way a victim can be penetrated is listed. It is therefore likely to catch more respondents.

    Thre is a follow-up questions to those who reported more than one sexual assault, they ask about the nature of the last one (SSA6A- SSA6I) and the answer alternatives are:

    Penetrated your [vagina or anus/anus] with their penis, even if only slightly

    Penetrated your [vagina or anus/anus] with an object (including fingers) even if only slightly

    Penetrated your mouth with their penis even if only slightly

    ATTEMPTED to penetrate your [vagina or anus/anus] with their penis, but did not succeed

    ATTEMPTED to penetrate your [vagina or anus/anus] with an object (including fingers) but did not succeed

    ATTEMPTED to penetrate your mouth with their penis but did not succeed

    Something else

    Don’t know/can’t remember

    Don’t wish to answer

    Here our hypthetical male victim of forced intercourse with a female perpetrator has to answer “7 Something else”.

    Again, as soon as he does answer 7 he is put into the “Other sexual offences” category in the report.

    This survey make a poor job of capturing men who has been raped by envelopment. The way questions are designed almost ensure that it underreport male victims of being made to penetrate someone else. Grouping the percentage of men who actually had been made to penetrate someone else together with the probably higher percentages of victims having been groped, flashed and so on are very effectively hiding how many men are victims of “being made to penetrate someone else”. It also helps maintain the belief that women are victmized by sexual offenses more than men.

    It reminds me of it’s often said that more girls than boys experience childhood sexual abuse. Statistics/studies often leaves it at that. However, the picture does change a but when another study found that while more women have experienced CSA it turns out that since more women than men reports touching an equal number of girls and boys experience CSA in the form of rape (intercourse).

  25. I closed a blockquote too soon in the comment above making a list of possible answers of quoted survey question appear to be a part of my text and not the quote. Hopefully it’s still possible to decipher it.

    It’s always a suspenseful experience to post a longer comment without any review/editing possibilities (that’s a hint :) ).

  26. Ampersand! Welcome!

    “Regarding the OP, it’s ridiculous that the government won’t refer to forced envelopment as rape. It clearly is rape.”

    We have feminists to thank for that correction to the common [mis]understanding of rape and hopefully one day the law will catch up.

    Clarence,
    “This is one of the few studies they’ve ended up *mostly* defending.”

    The part they defend is Koss’ contention that the respondents in fact were raped. As Brian points out, even that is shaky because of the question of consent. The legal concept of consent is not whether one partner wants it at the time or not, although that is an essential element of consent. The legal concept requires both parties to be clear on consent or the lack of it. That is the main weakness of Koss’ methodology.

    But that is not why I am criticizing her here. I am criticizing her for injecting a gender biased standard into her government work.

    Pierce Harlan (Community of the Wrongly Accused) has something to say about her too.
    http://www.cotwa.info/2012/03/frank-furedi-examines-culture-of-abuse.html

  27. Mr. Rideout:
    I appreciate your careful, respectful response.

    First, we agree on the alcohol question, at least as Koss formulated it. I don’t think it should be counted.
    We also agree that ‘attempted’ should not be lumped in with ‘completed’ in ANY reporting of the Koss report.

    Now for our disagreements and some potential nuances:
    “Also, if you are going to use Ohio state laws for “legal definition” you cannot project the findings of “matching the legal definition of rape” onto the nation. Koss herself admitted to later coming to understand that the definitions she used were ambiguous regarding phraseology and correspondence to legal definition in “The Making of an Epidemic” in the Blade.”
    While this is true for question 8 (even today alcohol statutes are quite different among the various states) I’m not so sure it applies to 8 and 9. Those would still tend to be the criteria for rape (if you take ‘sex when you didn’t want to’ as meaning sex ‘without consent’ as the rest of the study seems to indicate you should) in the vast majority of States.

    What do I mean by “the rest of the study seems…”?
    Well first here’s the final 3 questions:

    “8.Have you had sexual intercourse when you didn’t want to because a man gave you alcohol or drugs?
    9.Have you had sexual intercourse when you didn’t want to because a man threatened or used some degree of physical force (twisting your arm, holding you down, etc) to make you?
    10. Have you had sexual acts (anal or oral intercourse, or penetration by objects other than the penis) when you didn’t want to because a man threatened or used some degree of physical force (twisting your arm, holding you down, etc) to make you?”
    Me, you and Daran would all agree that 8 is problematical, just to reiterate.

    But look at some of the earlier questions:
    “6.Have you given in to sexual intercourse when you didn’t want to because you were overwhelmed by a man’s continual arguments and pressure?”

    I think the “given in to” is NOT how she intended her final two questions (9 and 10) to be read. I think 9 and 10 can still be considered ambiguous by some people in the manner in which you state , but I maintain that anybody that paid attention to question 6 would NOT think that she meant that ‘didn’t want to’ means ‘but gave in anyway’.

    Another problem for your argument in this case is that as Daran pointed out here:
    http://www.feministcritics.org/blog/2008/02/29/has-anyone-here-besides-me-actually-read-koss-paper/
    Similar results have been obtained by later research using ‘tightened up’ definitions.

    So this is by no means settled. Indeed, I hate to say it, because I hesitate to believe it myself, but the fact is right now it would seem based on the majority of research that many young woman (and probably young men too, but we are dealing with women when discussing Koss’s original research and the follow ups) are being raped and yet not regarding what happened to them as rape. Now of course it’s possible that Koss’s research did turn up lots of false positives (in the manner you pointed out) and that some of the subsequent research has been downright faked (after years of this stuff, I really wouldn’t put it past at least some feminists to downright falsify research, and P.S I’m fully aware of how few reports of rape and sex assault have been made to colleges so of course these insane rates of victimization wouldn’t seem to hold up) but without proof of that we should be asking just what is really going on with regards to sex and consent on college campuses.

    Here’s a politically incorrect thought and it has to do with rape fantasies. According to (admittedly limited to two papers and some Psychology Today articles)somewhere around 20 to 40 percent of all women have what is called a ‘rape fantasy’.

    Now let me be the first to state that most of these ‘rape fantasies’ are not intensely violent and they do not involve ugly or otherwise ‘undesirable’ males, from what I have read. IF there is anything to this, insofar as women might ‘desire’ rape in a fantasy form it’s only from a type of male they are otherwise attracted to anyway. So I guess on campus its possible a few ‘very popular’ guys can get away with tons of sexual misbehavior (including, legally at least) downright rape and for some women it fulfills a fantasy, and for others they just can’t see the man they admire as a rapist.

    I’m reasonably sure this explains some of the non-reporting at least.

    None.

  28. That ‘none’ at the end of the previous post is a mistake and means nothing.

  29. Oh Jim, what have you done?! Why have you put this on AVFM? You’ve inspired me to publish something I’d been holding back on concerning what I’m calling my ‘AVFM Anxiety’. I’d appreciate your thoughts (and indeed anyone else’s).

  30. femdelusion,

    that was a great article and I share similar concerns…

    I say loudly that Bernie Chapin and Paul Elam aren’t my voice….

    It really pisses me off when people like Daisy and Futrelle call me an MRA…

    (If you need a label- I suppose MGTOW-though my variant is just as much about turning my back on other men as much as women.)

    there was an unfortunate event around the time of when Inmalafide was imploding and several of us tried to tell the arrogant and grandiose Elam that the place had been overrun by white nationalists. Instead of listening and having an “I’ll look into it” attitude, he really talked down to people.

    http://stonerwithaboner.wordpress.com/2012/06/16/sometimes-im-not-so-articulate-but-sometimes-somethings-should-just-be-left-to-fail/

    AVfM is not this man’s voice.

    no Futrelle, I’m not on your “side” either, you bullying, fatuous bigot!!!

  31. Ginko,

    I appreciate your trying to get ideas out to a wider audience, but personally I think you made a mistake by publishing at AVfM

    I admit that I made a mistake by submitting articles to Inmalafide. Ironically, it has probably done more for my readership than anything else I’ve done though.

  32. Clarence: honestly, I am the wrong person to be arguing this. My background is primarily humanities.

    But again, the problem of the Koss report vis a vis 8, 9, and 10 is that they all fail to establish consent or lack thereof – because of their phrasing. While the letter of the law might describe the acts in detail, consent or lack thereof still must be established in a court of law to respect the spirit of the law.

    As for question 6: it could describe blackmail, whining, seduction, or persuasion. Having sex with someone when there is no threat of violence, coercion, or blackmail may not be pleasant, but it is still the choice made by an acting agent who could have said ‘no.’

    As to establishing context through the flow of questions from 6 to 8 and 9… that is mind-reading the respondent. We can’t know what they think, and so that does not provide a legitimate counterargument to criticism. I know plenty of people who, when responding to a series of questions, focus on each question, and ignore the wider context. How do we know which one it is.

    We could also argue that such a question is designed to introduce bias into the study by using the progressively stark language to entice women to answer ‘yes’ to 8, 9, or 10 without considering whether or not they gave consent, changed their mind, etc., thereby inflating the numbers. Both are fatuous.

    Nor is the intention of the question a good basis of judging the response. That is why criticize the survey design.

    I distrust any reproduction with allegedly ‘tighter’ phraseology that produced the same or highly similar results “1 in 4″. You are asking different questions, the results would only be the same if a majority of women responding to the original study understood the intention of each question to mean ‘non-consensual’ – which I have trouble crediting in a heterogeneous society.

    The experiences of any prostitute in North America could allow her to answer yes to 8, 9, and 10 (but not 6) while having consented to each for money. But a question that matched the legal definition of rape without ambiguity would not, for example.

    Honestly though, the more legitimate criticisms that can be levelled at Koss is that she was being funded by an anti-male foundation, and had expressed strong anti-male bias before undertaking the study. She wanted to prove that rape was a part of a normal spectrum of Men’s behaviour to lionize her theoretical arguments. Steinem, the editor of Ms. who picked Koss and funded the study has operated consistently on a Marxist model of Men as Oppressors and worked very hard to provide evidence of that throughout her career.

    I am not the one to break this down further, though. I am not the best-schooled in research methods. I just know my semantics and semiotics.

    I don’t know about “rape fantasy” theories when discussing our current narratives. I would be willing to believe that they made this concept more acceptable – as does the tendency of all Apexual men to see each other as contemptible. But I don’t think that really covers it entirely – in fact I am not sure I am willing to accept the “rape fantasy” explanation too broadly even as a part explanation. Again – it is mind reading. That doesn’t help us with genuine understanding – but I would love to see a study find correlation between rape fantasy and willingness to believe high or false rape statistics.

    In the meantime, I find it is most effective to do what I always do – follow the money: Who benefits from all these outrageous, misandric allegations? Well Koss and Steinem certainly have. From a human rights or mental health perspective Men certainly haven’t. Rich women have. Poor women, not so much.

    Again, at this point I am better at building Men up than worrying about putting Feminism down.

  33. …also,

    I saw postings around the manosphere about a conservative feminist blogger denying white men admission to college. In the links, there were a few red flags.

    I perused the links and 2 and 2 didn’t add up…

    her google + account listed one location, her other blog listed that she wasn’t even in the US and had a far different writing style than the first blog where she talked about denying white men admission. Just from 5 minutes of research, red flags were going off. Either they had two different people confused or someone was trying to smear one person for reasons unknown.

    5 minutes of research and the red flags were going off. (and I’m no alpha male with an advanced degree.) Yet those guys go all in. “Shoot first, ask questions later.”

    You don’t doxx someone unless you’ve got your shit 100% straight and you are ready to deal with the consequences.

    and if they do have the wrong person, that really pisses me off. I donated to the Innocence Project cause the idea of the wrong person getting punished goes against my values.

    what more can I fucking say…

  34. matter of publishing this at AVfM – Typhon asked to pull this together for publication at AVfM in the first place, so it’s appropriate that it show up there finally. Remember that this was basically all Tamen’s work.

    And that bears repeating. This was Tamen’s work, and Tamen advocates for male victims of rape by women. Posting at AVfM is a way to make something actually happen, to actually change things so that male victims of rape get respect and assistance. That won’t happen if I ghettoize an article here.

    AVfM happens to have developed influence. Whatever issues one may have with them – two things. One is that they have gone through a process of weeding out the troublesome loudmouths that made the place come across as so misogynist, both for philosophical and practical reasons. The other is that if you want something to make a difference, you go through channels, and AVfM has become a channel.

    Purism is a luxury. And as it happens I don’t share others’ bad opinion of AVfM anyway. I would not compare it to InMalafide at all and I don’t think the comparison fits.

  35. I’m glad you got it published there.
    I attempted to congratulate you there, but apparently they aren’t just banning misogynists…

  36. By the way, Jim:

    Here’s Asha:

    “(While we’re on the subject of female-perpetuated sexual abuse, most surveys that ask college age women about the sexual abuse they perpetrate find a shocking levels of female-perpetrated sexual abuse. Other surveys find that men who perpetuate sexual abuse are also sexually abused, suggesting a cycle of sexual abuse on college campuses. Perhaps rather than being victims of an indifferent system these silent female rape victims–who are part of a culture of cyclical sexual abuse–fail to come forward to the authorities about their abuse because it would mean admitting that they also are rapists? So the constant drumbeat of feminist agitprop about making these women “comfortable” never will, unless feminists invent a ray gun that neutralizes cognitive dissonance.)”

    I trust you can find the misogyny in that statement. Or heck, I trust you can find the misogyny in her whole article – you’ll note that while she calls for recognizing rapists are (often, though I’m sure we could easily quibble with her numbers as to whether it is MOST of the time, my God what a conclusion from limited, contradictory, and rather sparse data) at least sometimes sexually abused themselves, she doesn’t call for recognizing ALL male victims – instead through the whole article she only mentions women rapists as if young boys aren’t being raped by older men in Afghanistan.

    Let me say this : I’ve known Asha a very long time. So (unlike what was apparently done to me by someone at AVFM) I’m willing to let her explain herself before consigning her to the depths of misogynist hell. Perhaps this essay was just poorly written. But it seems to me like it does three things all of them either morally or logically repugnent
    A. From a logical point of view it is FAR FROM SETTLED that most male rapists were raped themselves. Besides, not all trauma is sexual.
    B. From a moral point of view the very assertion that the reason that most female rape victims do not report because they are rapists themselves is disgusting. Even many of the radfems I hate don’t assert that “most men” rape, let alone most male rape victims. You have to be the type of rad fem who asserts that “all heterosexual intercourse is rape” to believe that most or all men rape and , ironically, the argument made is an INSTITUTIONAL, not PERSONAL argument. Asha’s argument is PERSONAL. Most female rape victims have individually taken some action that resulted in the rape of a man. Indeed, in this essay Asha seems to be pinning the whole problem of rape on women as a group, and totally excusing men -except the rapists themselves, and even then she seems to have nothing but sympathy for them.
    C. Apparently if we demonized females like males are demonized we could Stop Rape. Instead of trying to stop Rape Hysteria, this simply seems to be feeding it.

    Anyway, I’m going to get personal again in the sake of full disclosure.
    I’ve told a few people that a close relative of mine was raped. Well it wasn’t JUST a close relative , it was my mother. She came home bloody, crying, and shaking and had to go the hospital for a few days.I was about 7 or 8 at the time. They never found the man who did it. My mother never sexually abused me or either of my brothers; I find it hard to believe she ever had the time or inclination to sexually abuse anyone, and of course she went to the cops. But if she hadn’t (this was in the late 70′s when victims support services weren’t nearly as numerous) – if the shame had been too much for her – I’m sure she’d appreciate Typhon basically accusing her of raping her rapist or something.

    The other thing I’m going to bring up is that I was sexually abused myself though it was minor and I’ve never told a living soul the details. It was an uncle. I had been staying at his house (and so had my brothers) since I was a little kid. He was gay, but NEVER had tried anything or even seemed sexual toward me. But one night, at 13 or 14 (can’t remember the exact year but it was the mid 1980′s) I woke up from sleeping in his bed to find his hand on my penis.

    Even back then, we had “stranger danger” training in schools and I had some idea of personal boundaries and stuff. Anyway, I was shocked… I told him to knock it off and that if he ever did anything like that again, I’d tell my aunt (his mother). He stopped of course, apologized, and was very profusely apologetic about it for nearly a month after. I never slept in his bed again (I was getting rather old, but please remember he had never hinted at or tried anything before in the 6 years or so I had been occasionally visiting him), but while things were very awkward for awhile I eventually forgave him. It helped that I smelled alcohol on his breath, something I had never smelled before in all the years I’d known him. I could have ruined his life, in hindsight, giving how things turned out I’m glad I gave him that chance – though I’ve never asked him WHY he was drunk that night.

    Why did he abuse me or attempt to abuse me? Was it because his mother MUST have abused him even though he seemed to love her? Or was it more likely the effect of drinking and some personal issue (at the time) that he never discussed?

    These things are complicated. What I’m seeing from A Voice for Men lately is anything but fair or nuanced and has, at times, verged into hate speech all on its own. They have much to answer for, and while I will continue to help them (because unlike SOME of their commenters MOST of their actual actions will help men without being unfair to women ) I’m now going to have to be very wary of what they may become.

  37. A. From a logical point of view it is FAR FROM SETTLED that most male rapists were raped themselves. Besides, not all trauma is sexual.
    B. From a moral point of view the very assertion that the reason that most female rape victims do not report because they are rapists themselves is disgusting. Even many of the radfems I hate don’t assert that “most men” rape, let alone most male rape victims.

    I saw it in another way.

    Koss identified behavior which falls under gray rape, such as “not really wanting to”, being under the influence of alcohol, etc. And qualified those as ‘definitely rape’.

    The women who didn’t see it as rape when it happened to them, probably didn’t see it that way because they also had sex with men “not really wanting to” or under the influence of alcohol (enough to severely impair judgment even).

    It’s like if you go on the highway. The speed limit is 100 km/h here (roughly 63 mph). But most people *know* they can go up to 120 km/hm easily, and not ever be arrested, and that only people going above 130 km/h even get speeding tickets, and the worst offenders (literally racing on the highway at 180+ km/h) are the most caught too, if they don’t cause an accident.

    Koss identified stuff that’s in the “120 km/h limit” that isn’t seen as criminal, but merely “pushing it a bit”. Such as horseplay being seen as hostile or not (its grey, depending on intent – usually its hostile if the ones have never been friendly to you and no intention to – but horseplay between siblings is extremely common, even in baby animals, and then harmless).

    Some people think it’s rape the moment you pass the 100 km/h limit. Some think we ought to check the circumstances of each case, and have allowances for gray cases. This would be Romeo and Juliet clauses to statutory rape for example, allowing that two close-in-age teenagers haven’t raped each other (or that “only the guy” raped the girl, because penis, and pregnancy – apparently in Ireland, a minor girl (17 or under) cannot be charged with statutory rape (sex with someone 17 or under) because of pregnancy being possible, so the guy gets charged, even if he’s the younger party and the act consensual, because he’s the boy – without that female privilege clause, both would be charged).

    If we went with the strictest of the law, I’ve been raped many many times, by my boyfriend. I had sex while pretty much blacked out – I didn’t even remember the last 2 hours before sleeping (but I was able to talk apparently, just not walk). And while I did agree with sleep sex prior, the law says it’s impossible to do so. I’ve also had sex while my blood alcohol was probably way above the recommended driving limit, and I take meds (permanently and forever, the hormones) which don’t mesh well with alcohol (but I’m not becoming a monk for that reason). Basically, alcohol is stronger on me, I’ll be very drunk way sooner than him, regardless of our weights.

    The government agency that regulates the selling of alcohol here (Société des Alcools du Québec) has had advertisments lately saying that men shouldn’t go above 3 drinks a day, 15 a week, women 2 drinks a day, 10 a week.

    Tell me two shots get you even feeling tipsy? They’re unrealist. People WANT to be under the influence at least to SOME degree when they drink, and 3 drinks ain’t gonna cut it for an entire evening.

    I drink pretty much every weekend, rum, pure 40%, in 1 oz shots. I drink at least 10, sometimes 12 of them. So does my boyfriend, but he might take some extra if he stays up later listening to music. If we’re going to have sex, it will nearly always be in the middle to late evening, on a night we drink. When we’re both pretty drunk. We’re also pretty safe, and know better than to abuse the other one. But if we listened to rape prevention stuff, we would NEVER have sex, because I’m too drunk (and only the woman’s level of drunkenness matters, of course).

    By the time we do have sex, I’m awake and aware, and not sick or zombie. I can walk, and think. But I’m also very impaired in judgment. I take it upon myself though. I know what I’m potentially getting into before I drink. If I’m getting very drunk, I do it in a place I know is safe enough (home), not a bar, or a party at an acquaintance’s. The time I blacked out was at my brothers’ place (the 3 of them live there), and nothing bad happened. I made the mistake of drinking pure rum from glasses…it gets you dead drunk much faster than shots if you take them straight.

  38. My mother never sexually abused me or either of my brothers; I find it hard to believe she ever had the time or inclination to sexually abuse anyone, and of course she went to the cops… I’m sure she’d appreciate Typhon basically accusing her of raping her rapist or something.

    I’ve heard you say a lot of idiotic things, Clarence, but this is by far the dumbest, most absurd misconstruing of facts and logic that I have ever seen you come up with.

  39. Dungone:
    Put up or shut up.
    Bet you’ll shut up because you can’t put up.

  40. Schala:
    That’s being far more generous to Typhon than her argument would seem to allow, and it’s sort of like trying to criticize Koss’s original study rather than what I was criticizing which is what Typhon has written.
    Typhon isn’t talking ‘gray rape’, she’s taking these numbers at face value as rapes.
    Read the rest of her post.

    I prefer to think the vast majority of people -men and women on college campuses- don’t rape each other, that this problem is exaggerated, and that a climate of fear does no one any good. Of course I pointed out debunking Koss isn’t as easy as some people like Heather MacDonald believe.

    Typhon prefers to believe that women simply rape so much that they are scared to talk about their own rapes for fear of being caught.

    It’s actually a rather breathtaking assertion.

  41. By the way:
    There’s a tremendous difference between saying:
    “Females can rape men, too!” and “Only females can solve rape because if there weren’t so many female rapists there wouldn’t be any male ones”.

    Or doing what Jim did on behalf of Tamen and boys everywhere and pointing out that a prominent feminist (Koss) has apparently abused her institutional power to attack male victims.

    That’s a good and useful message. This shit is just demonizing female rape victims and ‘patriarchy’ turned on its head.

    Luckily Manboobz is so busy taking stuff out of context and crowing over what now seems to be a mistake (I may have thought they were hasty; but I’d never assign malice to AVFM) about the admissions thing and have burned so much of any credibility they might have that they won’t notice this slip.

  42. “Typhon prefers to believe that women simply rape so much that they are scared to talk about their own rapes for fear of being caught.”

    Do you remember that she is a rape victim? And that her rapist was a woman? Do oyu think she means to impute to ehrself what you say she is imputing to ther female rape victims?

    Or is it perhaps simply that she recognizes that nothing is a problem in Anglosphere societies until it happens to women and that if we want some kind of balance and decency in the discussion around rape, women are going to have to be subjected to the same kinds of imbalalnace and indecency that emn are before anyone takes the problem seriously.

    Typhon and GWW and Dr. Hellen Smith and any woman working on men’s issues routinely get labelled misogynist. It doesn’t really stick.

  43. Gingko:

    If I print this article out and take it to 100 non-feminist (but non-MRA) people and ask if it’s misogynistic -hell, ask what they think about it – I’m willing to bet:
    A. The vast majority will say its misogynistic
    B. There will be many feelings of disgust

    Is this really what we want at “A Voice for Men”?
    And here you were saying they got rid of some ‘bad apples’ or misogynists at A Voice For Men. Maybe they did – my post on that other site will deal with some of it. But that doesn’t mean they got rid of all misogyny as this piece shows.
    Yeah, I know you can get called misogynistic for sneezing with privilege according to some feminists. But if people who didn’t know crap about this were to be exposed to Typhonblue or A Voice for Men for the first time – what would they think?

  44. Oh, and Jim:
    The reason it doesn’t stick is because when one examines their writings they don’t support the charge. Or perhaps one has encountered online feminism and gotten the aforementioned “you disagree with me you mainsplaining rape apologist misogynist” at the drop of a hat.

    But in this case: it will stick, provided the piece is linked with the accusation.

  45. But if people who didn’t know crap about this were to be exposed to Typhonblue or A Voice for Men for the first time – what would they think?

    You mean people who haven’t drank the feminist Kool-Aid since birth right?

    Because I’ve been raised on feminist Kool-Aid, it’s in the walls, inevitable.

    As much as there is a “boys will be boys” attitude, nowadays, it’s mainly left to explain why boys suck. Girl power is there to show being female is more fun/interesting/good than being male, and feminism says, over and over, that men are evil, men rule, men are oppressors, men are the 1%, women are better, help women more, women are oppressed.

    If you haven’t absorbed that, and you see the messages directed at males and at female, regarding rape, you won’t find Typhonblue’s post misogynistic. Only if you’re already biased to find everything is oppression of women, will you find it uniquely oppressive of women, in a way the rape advice for men is not oppressive of men (because men CANT be oppressed by that definition anyways).

  46. While I agree that particular survey is rife with issues, I do take issue with the point about “As a follow up they asked several questions including ‘do you believe that you were raped?’ and asking if the respondent had had sex with the same man subsequently. 73% of the respondents said that they do not believe that they were raped” Someone not thinking of an experience as rape doesn’t mean it’s not rape. It could be, but without any other data there’s no way of knowing whether it is or not, thanks to the loosely worded questions. (Asking someone how often they use alcohol and the ways it affects their life is very different from just asking someone “Are you an alcoholic?”.)

  47. “Men who rape are not raping because they’ve been told it’s cool or fun or awesome, or because they heard an off color joke, saw a naked ankle or watched porn… they rape because they have a powerful emotional compulsion to do so.”
    I’m not sure this is never the case. If “rape culture” has any point beyond (mostly rightfully) attacking ‘slut shaming’, it’s the point that some men believe that all women play hard to get or like force and without any nuance or caution to these beliefs one could fall into rapist territory without necessarily intending to.

    “Most men are devastated after being rejected by a woman. What makes anyone think that the average man is going to enjoy enduring the most profound rejection one human being can muster for another—which is exactly what the rapist endures in order to rape.”
    Good: most men don’t want to rape.
    Bad: Those poor rapists. Just think of what they have to endure knowing their partner isn’t enthusiastic! I suppose my mothers rapist was just full of suffering during the deed.

    “What the current crop of male targeted anti-rape posters will do is normalize rape. It won’t normalize rape for men who aren’t compelled to rape in the first place. Nope. It’ll just shame them. But it will normalize rape for men who are rapists.
    Instead of seeing themselves as damaged individuals who are engaging not just in harm to others, but harm to themselves, rapists—male ones at least—will see themselves as the guys who do what every other guy really wants to do, but doesn’t have the balls.They aren’t hurting, they’re edgy.”

    This is actually a good argument, with the exception that I don’t think rape always necessarily does any harm to the rapist. Rape is, at heart, the violation of another persons autonomy, nothing else. The sex is often inconsequential (esp with abortion, BC, treatment for any STD’s etc)- its the emotional component that can be devastating. If a rapist -male or female- lacks emotion or at least sexualized emotion, I doubt they suffer at all.

    “Being raped.
    That’s right. The strongest risk factor for a boy going on to sexually abuse is having been sexually abused by an adult woman.[1]
    This is where the emotional compulsion to abuse comes from. This is the motivation. This is the manufacture process for adult male rapists.”

    Maybe true, maybe not. Lets assume true for sake of argument.

    “Yet despite being sexually violated, only a fraction of these boys go on to abuse! That’s how resistant to raping the average male human is; even the most effective method of training a boy to become a rapist—by raping him–is only effective for one out of every ten boys.
    The idea that a bad joke, a naked ankle or porn will cause men to rape is demonizing. The idea that there exists a “rape culture” teaching men to rape in any way but by raping them and then ignoring their subsequent emotional disorder is depraved.”
    Well, it’s true the current feminist power structure deals with male rape in depraved ways. No argument there.
    But note the “only one in ten”! boys who are raped go on to commit rape. Since the numbers of male rapists are variously attributed between 1 and 6 percent of the male population*Lisak as an example* (with most being repeat offenders) she means to say that between 10 and 60 percent of all boys in the USA have been raped -probably by a woman.
    “And here’s the thing. Right now, in the US, there is an epidemic of  institutionalized sexual abuse that is being ignored in favor of manufactured statistics about sex trafficking of girls and other juicy sexualized and sensationalized threat narratives designed to push our buttons.”
    This is true. I guess it must follow then that the solution is to lie, exaggerate, and sensationalize ourselves then? I’d like to believe this strategy would work even though the moral part of me is disgusted by it. Hey, gotta break a few (female human) eggs to make omeletes, right?
    But in fact it’s likely to backfire, and I can think of a million ways the current system will keep grinding men up. Meanwhile AVFM and those affiliated with them would be discredited.

    “This forces the problem of female perpetrated sexual abuse underground; in fact we could see the existence of male-perpetuated sexual abuse as a symptom of our society’s absolute inability to recognize male victims and give them timely help.
    So how do we stop rape?
    We acknowledge female rapists. We acknowledge why boys grow up to be rapists. We provide services for male survivors of sexual abuse so they have a place to heal. Not just to stop the cycle of abuse but because men and boys who are sexual abuse survivors deserve as much compassion as women and girls. We kick the ideologs out of our institutions of healing because what matters is helping people, not perpetuating feminist pseudoscience.”
    I agree with all this.
    Too bad there’s the rest of this essay.
    “We start by telling the feminists to shut the fuck up.
    There is no ‘rape culture’ and if there is—if the idea of “rape culture” really is ‘a culture which enables rape’–you better start backpedaling because it’s looking like you’re the biggest purveyors of it.”
    Fine so far. Even Ozy Frantz would admit that there is ‘rape culture’ in the part of feminism which denies females can rape men or other women.
    “While we’re on the subject of female-perpetuated sexual abuse, most surveys that ask college age women about the sexual abuse they perpetrate find a shocking levels of female-perpetrated sexual abuse. Other surveys find that men who perpetuate sexual abuse are also sexually abused, suggesting a cycle of sexual abuse on college campuses. Perhaps rather than being victims of an indifferent system these silent female rape victims–who are part of a culture of cyclical sexual abuse–fail to come forward to the authorities about their abuse because it would mean admitting that they also are rapists? So the constant drumbeat of feminist agitprop about making these women “comfortable” never will, unless feminists invent a ray gun that neutralizes cognitive dissonance.)”

    Oopsy daisy. Now we’ve conflated rape with all forms of sexual abuse, we’ve assumed that these surveys are accurate in the first place, and here we go attacking rape victims as being rapists. Amazing.

  48. Oh, and Jim?
    Yes, I am saying that Typhonblue is attacking female rape victims. She’s attacking the ones who were raped by males. You know one of her legitimate beefs with feminism is that they have trouble with female/female rape let alone female/male rape. There is no large organized lobby of female rape survivors of rape by other females. Indeed, female/female rape is probably the least talked about type of rape, and there’s certainly no push on college campuses for help for female survivors like Typhon. Heck, even male survivors often get ‘lip service’ at least.

  49. Clarence, I think you care too much what Manboobz thinks. Typhon’s point was essentially that women don’t report the kind of things Mary Koss’s survey says are rape as rape, because they know that if those standards were applied to everybody they’d be considered rapists too. To me that says that most women are more honest and pragmatic than the likes of Mary Koss, they know that sex often involves assumptions and miscommunications and persuasion and shortcuts and feelings of obligation and the use of social lubricants, and even emotional manipulation and deceit, that both sexes are responsible for such things, and while at the extreme end they might be shitty, selfish and hurtful they’re not rape, and so women don’t “come forward” to report them as rape. Sex is messy, especially when you’re young and still figuring out what’s what. Trying to criminalise every less than ideal experience is not helpful, and trivialises what rape really is.

    “Rape culture” is just the latest permutation of the old standard “all men are rapists”. “Shroedinger’s rapist” didn’t stick, because most of the target audience don’t know much about quantum physics and don’t get the reference, so “rape culture” is what they’re currently going with. The only “rape culture” that exists is those people who see a four-year-old boy try to kiss a four-year-old girl and think of rape, or see a two-year-old boy doing nothing in particular and think of rape, as has been seen in links in the comments here recently. These people are not normal or healthy, and we should not try and justify ourselves to them.

  50. Patrick:
    I’m actually not arguing against anything you said, but Typhonblue is NOT arguing what you are. She is arguing, as I’ve patiently shown with her own post that most female rape victims (at least on college campuses) don’t report because they are rapists themselves.
    If she is appropriately skeptical of what constitutes rape : e.g, she doesn’t believe that social coercion or a few beers or whatever leads to rape – then she is SPECIFICALLY attacking women who claim they were raped in the ways in which we tend to think of rape. Sex obtained via coercion due to force or threat of force.
    If she is NOT appropriately skeptical and is considering (as an example) a girl who was sober but had sex with a man who had two drinks a rapist THEN not only is she falling into the Koss trap of overdefining rape (as she did at least in Question 8 and arguably some of her earlier questions) but she’s demonizing women as RAPISTS for having sex with men who probably (due to the fact that males tend to have to initiate as we ALL know) came on to her in the first place.

    In either case it doesn’t look good to ME and I’m on Typhonblues side. Forget Manboobz – his credibility is shot – and just think about a normal man or woman new to the “genders sphere” who runs into Typhonblue’s article on what is arguably the largest men’s website focused on Mens Rights in the world. I’ve defended (in my mind at least and sometimes on various sites such theantifeminist.com) some of what Paul and them have done in terms of banning and the appointing of their current mods and such as necessary due to public relations or because some of the people involved really were sexist against women and thus needed to be shown the door.

    How then can I explain how I was treated over NOTHING or this post by Typhon which seems to be a Jezebel godsend?
    Something else must be going on at AVFM other than just “PR” stuff, because from a PR point of view this piece stinks to high heaven.

  51. @ Clarence

    Am I not also attacking male rape victims by your logic?

  52. Typhon:
    Did you mention how rape will only be solved once we recognize that male rape victims aren’t coming forward because they know they’d have to answer for all the rapes they did themselves?

    You didn’t? I think that answers your question.

  53. This is precisely what I said:

    “While we’re on the subject of female-perpetuated sexual abuse, most surveys that ask college age women about the sexual abuse they perpetrate find a shocking levels of female-perpetrated sexual abuse. Other surveys find that men who perpetuate sexual abuse are also sexually abused, suggesting a cycle of sexual abuse on college campuses. Perhaps rather than being victims of an indifferent system these silent female rape victims–who are part of a culture of cyclical sexual abuse–fail to come forward to the authorities about their abuse because it would mean admitting that they also are rapists? So the constant drumbeat of feminist agitprop about making these women “comfortable” never will, unless feminists invent a ray gun that neutralizes cognitive dissonance.”

    I was referring to the “rape epidemic” on college campuses. Thus I’m referring to sexual behaviour between adults who are close in age.

    Notice that I mention research that found male victims of sexual abuse on college campuses also often perpetuated it. Now who is it they’re raping/being raped by?

    As I said, this is indicative of a culture of cyclical sexual abuse in which the victims are also the aggressors.

    Now either these people are raping because they’re damaged (and I’m sure there are a number of innocents who are accidental victims of this culture of cyclical rape) or they are working under a notion of consent very different from feminists. Possibly both.

    But the point is that dealing with such a culture is going to require a far less ham-fisted approach than blaming and shaming the men in it.

  54. Typhon:

    “Perhaps rather than being victims of an indifferent system these silent female rape victims–who are part of a culture of cyclical sexual abuse–fail to come forward to the authorities about their abuse because it would mean admitting that they also are rapists? So the constant drumbeat of feminist agitprop about making these women “comfortable” never will, unless feminists invent a ray gun that neutralizes cognitive dissonance.)”

    Not a mention of males in there.

  55. @ Clarence

    “Not a mention of males in there.”

    I notice you quote just after this sentence:

    “Other surveys find that MEN who perpetuate sexual abuse are also sexually abused, suggesting a cycle of sexual abuse on college campuses.”

    You are being really disingenuous here, Clarence.

    Now why did I focus on women in the following sentences?

    Because feminists aren’t complaining about male victims being silenced by a system indifferent to their suffering.

  56. “Now either these people are raping because they’re damaged (and I’m sure there are a number of innocents who are accidental victims of this culture of cyclical rape) or they are working under a notion of consent very different from feminists. Possibly both.”

    These are possibilities, as well as the possibility that not as many rapes are going on as one would think based on all the agitprop and rhetoric conflating grabbing an ass with forcible sodomy. There’s also the possibility that I brought up in another post – that most rapes on campus (and possibly regular sexual assaults as well) are done by a minority of very socially powerful men and most women don’t report them due to fear of social ostracization, personal reasons due to the fact its hard to see someone you are attracted to as a rapist or maybe even a few who have had their ‘rape fantasies’ fulfilled. It could be any or all of these types of ideas combined as well as a few more things that neither of us have thought about.

    “But the point is that dealing with such a culture is going to require a far less ham-fisted approach than blaming and shaming the men in it.”

    We agree on that, but the point isn’t to shame women as well. Sexual shame is tremendously harmful and is one of the main factors in false accusations. The point would be to improve education as concerns sexual boundaries, reduce the shaming/blaming of men, and perhaps introduce policies to realistically deal with the drunken ‘hook up’ culture that pervades many campuses. Seriously, I wish they could MONITOR drinking /drugs on campus rather than merely turn a blind eye to it. Just another problem with criminalization of ‘underage’(college students for God’s sake) drinking.

    Once again, you or A Voice for Men wants to get help with placing posters/writing policies whatever that deal with campus sex ed, rape of men by women and women by women, men by men, that’s fine. I’m on board. But If I start seeing posters telling women they can stop rape at least using the insulting language and themes that are commonly used for ‘anti rape’ campaigns directed at men, you can count on losing any such help.

  57. You mean I noticed that you focused on women and basically accused rape victims of also being rapists?

    Sorry, Typhon, that’s what you did.

    That there are more nuanced positions behind your rhetoric is not a surprise – I have known you a long time – but the rhetoric itself is hateful and inflammatory and people that don’t know you can’t be expected to wait around for you to explain these things. It’s like I said – if that entire last paragraph was dropped from your post it wouldn’t change a thing and would be all for the best.

    I also rather doubt your explanation in the first place. Let’s assume you are correct however and that not only a lot (maybe most) of sexual harassment/minor forms of sexual assault is reciprocal (which I can actually believe) but that rape is as well.

    Are we really saying that men and women enter college campuses unsocialized via prior abuse or anything and then somehow get the socialization to start raping/assaulting each other starting from the very beginning of their college experience? Remember Koss and similar finds high rates among FIRST year students as well as other years. Presumably this magic rape culture would have to start working right away.

    No, I think the only logical conclusion is that most of the rapists are socialized prior (possibly well prior) to coming to college.

  58. Clarence: You mean I noticed that you focused on women and basically accused rape victims of also being rapists?

    Sorry, Typhon, that’s what you did.

    Yes, that is what you did. I was pretty shocked by it.

    You are basically arguing that women rape victims no longer need to be listened to at all, since they are all criminals at base. Right? (That’s why you said they all need to “shut the fuck up”… since they all brought it on themselves.)

    Therefore, this piece will be interpreted by anti-MRAs as your attempt to get all men off the hook for rape, since it is WOMEN who actually made it all happen. Right?
    You therefore strengthen anti-MRAs, who are swapping this piece on various private forums/google groups so fast it would make your head spin. (I got it three times already.) They are using this post to ‘prove’ that the agenda of MRAs is to make the world safe for men to rape. Your words, TB. I mean, since no man is ever responsible since women make men rapists, it means your ultimate goal must be to vindicate even guilty men. Right?

    This is what the threads are saying. Your words, TB.

    AVFM is turning into the male equivalent of Radfem Hub. If that is your intention, keep it up. If not, you might want to reconsider the nasty, vicious rhetoric. It certainly does reinforce the whole “hate group” accusation.

  59. Daisy:
    If that is what is going on then I hate to say that I was right.
    I had nothing to do with it, I’ve kept my criticism “in house” so to speak.
    The problem isn’t that Typhon will be called a misogynist, Daisy. You know that one can get called THAT for breathing. The problem is that this is one of those pieces (and I’ve honestly never seen another one from TB that could be legitimately called misogynist) that will back up the accusation and people often don’t investigate farther.

  60. Feminist Google group commenter singles out the same quote that Clarence does:

    Perhaps rather than being victims of an indifferent system these silent female rape victims–who are part of a culture of cyclical sexual abuse–fail to come forward to the authorities about their abuse because it would mean admitting that they also are rapists?

    Google group commenter adds:

    we see here that the Men’s Rights goal is to stop all women from coming forward. if they complain they were raped – they are automatic rapists themselves! way to stop the bitches from saying anything at all! if they could just get this instituted as law, they could arrest all female rape victims on the spot. this is obviously what they are going for, to make rape (of women) legal again. it would free up many of their movement martyrs from prison.

    This is what I’m talking about. This is how some circles are reading your post.

    And I confess, I wondered about it myself.

  61. @ Daisy and Clarence

    “You mean I noticed that you focused on women and basically accused rape victims of also being rapists?”

    Again, I point you to the exact words I used.

    “While we’re on the subject of female-perpetuated sexual abuse, most surveys that ask college age women about the sexual abuse they perpetrate find a shocking levels of female-perpetrated sexual abuse. OTHER SURVEYS FIND THAT MEN WHO PERPETUATE SEXUAL ABUSE ARE ALSO SEXUALLY ABUSED, SUGGESTING A CYCLE OF SEXUAL ABUSE ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES.”

    Perhaps I should repeat this sentence over and over again until the two of you recognize what is being said.

    “OTHER SURVEYS FIND THAT MEN WHO PERPETUATE SEXUAL ABUSE ARE ALSO SEXUALLY ABUSED, SUGGESTING A CYCLE OF SEXUAL ABUSE ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES.”

    “OTHER SURVEYS FIND THAT MEN WHO PERPETUATE SEXUAL ABUSE ARE ALSO SEXUALLY ABUSED, SUGGESTING A CYCLE OF SEXUAL ABUSE ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES.”

    “OTHER SURVEYS FIND THAT MEN WHO PERPETUATE SEXUAL ABUSE ARE ALSO SEXUALLY ABUSED, SUGGESTING A CYCLE OF SEXUAL ABUSE ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES.”

    Let me cut down that down to the really pertinent bit shall I?

    “OTHER SURVEYS FIND THAT MEN WHO PERPETUATE SEXUAL ABUSE ARE ALSO SEXUALLY ABUSED”

    How about again for good measure?

    “OTHER SURVEYS FIND THAT MEN WHO PERPETUATE SEXUAL ABUSE ARE ALSO SEXUALLY ABUSED”

    How about a third time, maybe that will do the trick?

    “OTHER SURVEYS FIND THAT MEN WHO PERPETUATE SEXUAL ABUSE ARE ALSO SEXUALLY ABUSED”

    You know what, I don’t think that’s enough, so let me narrow it down even further.

    “MEN WHO PERPETUATE SEXUAL ABUSE ARE ALSO SEXUALLY ABUSED”

    Maybe again.

    “MEN WHO PERPETUATE SEXUAL ABUSE ARE ALSO SEXUALLY ABUSED”

    What the hell, another time can’t hurt!

    “OTHER SURVEYS FIND THAT MEN WHO PERPETUATE SEXUAL ABUSE ARE ALSO SEXUALLY ABUSED”

    And now that we’ve clarified that I’m also talking about men perpetuating the cycle of sexual abuse let’s continue on with the rest of the quote.

    “Perhaps rather than being victims of an indifferent system these silent female rape victims–who are part of a culture of cyclical sexual abuse–fail to come forward to the authorities about their abuse because it would mean admitting that they also are rapists? So the constant drumbeat of feminist agitprop about making these women “comfortable” never will, unless feminists invent a ray gun that neutralizes cognitive dissonance.”

    Now I’m talking only about the vast number of silent victims feminists refer to when they enact their increasingly draconian restrictions to due process for men accused of rape. Those silent victims that are supposed to be given a voice by said feminist initiative to remove due process from men accused of rape.

    Again, maybe these silent victims are not coming forward because they are part of a cycle of abuse in which they also abuse? Therefore a better intervention would be to recognize sexually abusive women and get them therapy?

    I’m not talking about all victims of a campus culture of cyclical sexual violence, just the ones who remain silent.

    And when I talk about a campus culture of cyclical sexual abuse, I’m not saying all victims of sexual assault participate in it. In fact I never denied the idea that these people learned their abusive sexual habits as children and now have gone on to enact them as adults.

  62. Also rape of women was never legal.

    And if MRAs were working to make the rape of women legal, that would put them right in line with politically powerful feminist groups who have already managed to either keep the rape of men legal or make it legal where it was illegal.

    So… hm.

  63. @ Daisy

    “This is what I’m talking about. This is how some circles are reading your post.”

    Good. They’ll spread it far and wide. Let the concept of sexual abuse being a cycle that women participate in perpetuating sink into their subconscious and germinate.

    Maybe one day it’ll flower and we’ll create the right kind of tools to end it.

  64. Mr. Jim Doyle,

    “Purism is a luxury. And as it happens I don’t share others’ bad opinion of AVfM anyway. I would not compare it to InMalafide at all and I don’t think the comparison fits.”

    We have very different moralities and, dare I say, irreconcilable world views…

    I was not comparing it to Inmalafide, I was saying that my publishing at IMF was a mistake.

    There is no cognitive dissonance for me to state I strongly dislike feminists and the MRM-neither have my back.

    Going My Own Way means shutting the door on ideologies I think are flawed.

    I remember the old phrase, “Love it or leave it, it’s my way or the highway.”

    My biggest regrets were when I didn’t take the highway. I suppose there is some articulate quote about the road less travelled but I don’t have it.

    “Opting out” is the most powerful option for low status guys like me. I also believe this to be the most ethical. Lack of obligation to those who would see me as a tool or wish me harm.

    Let me leave with this:

    “Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.”

  65. TB, marital rape was legal for millenia. Still is, in some parts of the world.

    Clarence, I have never believed the whole “child abusers were abused themselves” okeydoke. Like you say about playing grab-ass, the definition of child abuse now varies wildly. According to that definition I was a victim of child abuse. But so were lots of us my age and older. MORES have changed. I did not discipline my child as harshly as I was disciplined because IT SIMPLY ISN’T DONE ANYMORE. The whole concept of what child abuse is, now even includes verbal abuse, something I was raised to think was normal, even harmless… and obviously better than physical abuse. Now the consensus has nearly reversed.

    Likewise, I guess I can say I was raped by the modern definitions. Maybe a couple of times, but I did not call it that at the time. I do not believe the men were abused by their mothers… I think these men thought THAT IS WHAT THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO DO, they did not mean “harm”… MORES HAVE CHANGED. For instance, making men conscious that what is in porn (i.e. women saying stop, who really mean go) is not “real life” is helpful and good. I don’t see that as blaming anyone, but as educational. Likewise, I harassed a man once, since I thought all men were raring to go all the time. I was taught all men want sex, sex, sex every second, so this man must want it too. I whined until he did. I now feel guilty about that, but I don’t think I ruined his life or anything. The fact is, simple education that no, men do not want sex every second the way I raised to believe, would have been helpful. (I thought he was feigning disinterest, since he had shown interest in other circumstances) Education about rape and consent are good. We can do this without shaming either gender.

    I don’t see why we have to say “shut the fuck up” and so on, when we need to hear from both genders about how these things happen, how consent can be mangled and misunderstood.

    TB, as I said, if you are trying to be Radfem Hub for men, keep up the good work.

    I said more here than I intended. Yeesh! Peace out

  66. @ Daisy

    “TB, marital rape was legal for millenia. Still is, in some parts of the world.”

    It’s legal against men and women. In fact there are precedents set in which men have been sued (France and Oman) for failing to preform their “conjugal duties”. And it’s apparently illegal in Mexico for a man _not_ to put out during marriage. (Not putting out is on the Duluth wheel as abusive behaviour, btw.)

    Not only is marital rape of men allowed, a man saying “no” to his wife risks being punished.

    Yet another problem that affects men that feminists have taken over as woman-only.

    “TB, as I said, if you are trying to be Radfem Hub for men, keep up the good work.”

    Seriously? Me saying that sexual abuse is a cycle that women participate in and the reason why those silent FEMALE victims that feminists drone on and on and on about are silent is because they are also perpetuating abuse and they don’t want to acknowledge that(or maybe, like yourself, don’t see it _as_ abuse) is equivalent to advocating murdering 90% of men? (And 80% of women for good measure?) Or castrating men? Or even advocating that raping women be legal(WTF?)

    People who think this is reasonable dialog need to shut up and listen.

  67. I’m also amazed at what these feminist circles find worthy to get outraged about.

    Me saying that sexual abuse is a cycle and maybe the reason why many college age women aren’t coming forward to charge men with rape even after feminists have done their damnedest to strip men of their due process rights in college tribunals… maybe it’s not because the system is so intimidating but because they would have to recognize _themselves_ as abusive to do it… _that_ gets feminists up in arms. (Which isn’t saying anything that research hasn’t already pointed to: the people being abused are often also the ones doing the abusing too.)

    But the smoking gun in Mary Koss’s hands in regards to minimizing and shuffling male rape victims off into the shadows on a governmental policy level doesn’t phase them in the slightest.

    It’s interesting how feminists pick their battles, no?

  68. TB: I’m also amazed at what these feminist circles find worthy to get outraged about.

    Outraged? You misunderstand. They are not outraged, they are gleeful. They think you have proven yourself to be a misogynist worth ignoring, a member of the Black Helicopter faction.

    They think you are arguing for men to have free reign to rape whomever they please, any time they please, since the women all brought it on themselves. (Right?) No blame for men is possible–isn’t that what you are arguing? Women are responsible for getting themselves raped. That is how they read your comments. And that is how I read it the first time, too.

    Rape victims = rapists. Isn’t that what you said? (that is the title of one such thread, BTW)

    This means men can never be blamed. Right?

    They are GLEEFUL at what you wrote. They LIKE THAT YOU WROTE SOMETHING SO IMMORAL, and what it says about MRAs. They are passing it around at warp speed.

    You can expect to be dogged about it from now on. If you are proud of it, well… I think that will make them that much more gleeful. (sigh)

  69. Typhon:
    Your ‘cycle of abuse’ theory is -as far as I can tell- good and useful and probably accurate to some degree.
    However, your whole post was 90 plus percent not about that. And how many times did you mention ‘men’ or ‘man’ or ‘male’ when it was not attached to the adjective rapist?
    Rapists that you felt sorry for; rapists that you seem to blame women as a group for creating?
    This post wasn’t mostly about non-rapist men. It was about male rapists and female victims and no matter how many times you repeat ” “OTHER SURVEYS FIND THAT MEN WHO PERPETUATE SEXUAL ABUSE ARE ALSO SEXUALLY ABUSED”” (which might eventually be useful prevention information even if it is NOT true… I have no doubt that some men were sexually or physically abused and became rapists in part because of this) the fact is your post was not about that.

    Your post gets judged by the full extent of its content and the full extent of its content contains statements and paragraphs that make rape victims out to be perps, sympathize with rapists (male rapists in the case of this article), claims (via some dubious statistical manipulation or something – you never did explain your figure) that only ten percent of sexually abused men rape, thus leading to truly tremendous and stupendous numbers of sexually abused or raped men (add the women rape victims in there and you’ve probably got the majority of the US populance over age 15 or so being rape victims)… ah heck. I’m not rehashing this again and again.

    Here’s the point: it was poorly written for what you seem to want to say, and probably way overstates the mutual assault situation on college campuses and will give radfems and others who don’t like men plenty of ammunition to deny and obfuscate the very problems you want to fight. You shouldn’t give your enemies ammunition, and you should be more careful about how you say things WHEN YOU ARE AT A POLITICAL site.

    Heck, do I believe that most of what you are saying in this post is true or at least part of the truth about rape , esp. rape and sexual assault on college campuses? Yes, though there are plenty of parts where I think you are wrong or I remain skeptical. I’ve spelled those out in detail here. But that last paragraph…my God.

  70. @ Daisy

    “They are passing it around at warp speed.”

    Excellent. The fact you and they think it’s immoral doesn’t make it so.

    @ Clarence

    I get the impression you are responding to an article I didn’t actually write. Perhaps you should address your concerns to the author of that article.

  71. And I do find it ironic that someone who blogs so much about ‘hypoagency’ and such seems to want to remove it from men.

    In fact men and women both have agency (though I think everyone on this blog would agree that women often have a privilege in certain legal and social contexts of not having theirs recognized) and thus an individual woman rape victim is never responsible for her rapists pain (whatever that may be). Same for a male rape victim. Take a typical guy. Even if you got drunk one time and grabbed an ass, I bet your typical guy has never forced himself on anyone. How that contributes to some ‘cycle of victimization’ that means that woman who coerced him into bed with threats about how she’d say he assaulted her and have him beaten up is way beyond me.

    I’ll sometimes criticize male and female rape victims to a VERY LIMITED EXTENT if they did something personally stupid with no good excuse(being drunk is not an excuse). But I never feel they DESERVE their rape or that they are COMPLICIT in it.

    No, I don’t feel it’s likely the majority of women who don’t report on college campuses (however many or few that may be) are refusing to do so because they are rapists or sex assaulters themselves. I think it is more likely:
    A. Ironically ALL the agitprop makes some of the truly clueless ones scared because they really don’t know about the tremendous changes to laws and the campus and societal resources available to them since the early 70′s.
    So yes, it’s really true: some women still think it’s 1952 in a small town and they are an unpopular black person. These women don’t report out of fear.
    B. My reasons in other posts.
    C. The punishment does not necessarily fit the crime.
    Remember how harshly a conviction of rape (without a plea bargain) is punished. Some women feel that is too harsh. At least a few feel the punishments are too light and prefer more ‘personal’ vengeance.

  72. “Outraged? You misunderstand. They are not outraged, they are gleeful. They think you have proven yourself to be a misogynist worth ignoring, a member of the Black Helicopter faction”

    Gleeful? Good, very good. Let them get all gleeful and complacent and let them write Typhon off as someone to ignore. That is the best outcome that could be hoped for.

    They are not who Typhon is talking to. They are who she is talking about. And the longer they ignore her, the more they mischaracterize her, the more they distort what she says, the more obvious they make themselves.

    Sun Zi said:
    “怒而撓 – If your opponent is of choleric temper, seek to irritate him.”

    This is not a conversation with those you find in feminist spaces. The conversation has moved on from them and they are out of it, and need to be pushed further out.

  73. Just two questions, please clarify:

    Rape victims = rapists. Isn’t that what you said?

    This means men can never be blamed. Right?

  74. And here you go, Typhon.
    Stick your head in the sand again.
    You haven’t addressed most of my points, I’ve broken your post down into pieces.

    You never learn, and you find it impossible to give an inch about anything ever.

    I’m glad you like being used as an example of misogyny. I will allow that overall you’ve still done more good than harm but you just keep this up and eventually I think those scales will change.

  75. @ Daisy

    “Just two questions, please clarify:

    Rape victims = rapists. Isn’t that what you said?”

    Nope.

    “This means men can never be blamed. Right?”

    Assuming for the sake of argument I actually said something I didn’t, doesn’t it also mean women can never be blamed?

  76. Men? Why does it specifically clear men from getting blamed for rape?

    Letting men off the hook for rape is not the problem in this society. The problem in this society is letting women off the hook for rape.

    And this is how what goes a round comes around: when someone is in a position where his consent is taken for granted, where it is assumed like the sun coming up in the east, where his own consent is not his to control, then how is he going to even understand what consent and non-consent are?

    Now make this a her. How is someone who has ben taught form birth that she has the Big What They All want, and who has been taught that a real man is always ready to go, how is she even going to think to ask? How is she ever going to be able to keep from raping?

  77. “Now make this a her. How is someone who has ben taught form birth that she has the Big What They All want, and who has been taught that a real man is always ready to go, how is she even going to think to ask? How is she ever going to be able to keep from raping?”

    But Jim, hasn’t this been discussed innumerable times here and on other Men’s sites?
    Women don’t even think they can be sexual predators… but then along comes Typhonblue to claim they DO think that and in fact don’t report rapes because they don’t want to get caught. Either that, or AFTER they get raped they suddenly get a ‘rape education’ and come to realize (via reading the law or something I guess) that they are rapists too (though presumably NOT of their own personal rapist, but with TB who knows) and don’t report their rapes out of fear or shame.

    My PERSONAL opinion is that AT THE VERY VERY MOST 9 out of 10 rapes on College Campuses are not reported (and this still leads to far fewer rapes than Koss and similar would have you believe) and most of this is for the reasons I’ve enumerated in my prior posts and also probably some related to alcohol fog.
    And that’s at the WORST. I consider it likely that the true number of unreported rapes on campus is between 60 and 75 percent and not higher, once again due to the reasons I outlined.

    Feminists just love pulling tremendous and stupendous numbers of unreported rapes out of their asses, and Typhonblue takes those unreported rapes and makes all those females rapists themselves to boot.

    It is to laugh, if not cry.

  78. Yes, seriously:
    The amount of victimization of women to rape (not just sexual assault like a butt pat or sexual harassment but RAPE) on college campuses if you go by the “1 in 4″ statistic or even the 1 in 8 or 9 (for completed rapes) is far higher than anywhere else on Earth including war zones. At least if you go by these surveys and the inferences feminists rape ‘researchers’ often draw from them.
    These same surveys -if taken at face value – indicate truly incredible non -reporting numbers (98 to in some cases its claimed 99 percent PLUS) despite feminist presence on campus, anonymous rape hotlines, Victims Advocates (if they go the ‘report to the regular justice system” route) and Rape Shield laws, campus rape resources and education, the stories and support of other women who have been raped on campus etc. Oh, and lets not forget that campus disciplinary tribunals (which can lead to expulsion, denial of a degree etc) now rely only on “preponderance of the evidence” and in MOST schools don’t even allow the accused to directly confront his (or her) accuser.
    Of course male victims don’t have this much support but, far as I know, they can still use the anonymous helplines, and do get some support.

    Where are all these victims?
    What more can we do to make campuses safer for women or men?
    Why aren’t more people skeptical of this bullshit?

  79. @ Clarence

    Why is it so farfetched that women who rape don’t realize they’re raping–due to social norms rendering them unable to recognize taking advantage of men as rape–until it happens to them?

    We do perpetuate behaviour without recognizing its implications until those implications personally impact us.

    The other thing is humans are fond of cognitive dissonance. A female rapist can use social attitudes to rationalize her raping men while still recognizing what she’s doing on a emotional level, leading to an inability to come forward when she, in turn, is raped.

    Again, there is evidence that, like domestic abuse, a significant portion of sexual abuse is mutual and cyclical.

    If we recognized one half of this equation, we could remove both the rationalizations that female rapists use (he wants it) and possibly the rationalization that male rapists use (she did it to me therefore it isn’t really rape.)

    “Feminists just love pulling tremendous and stupendous numbers of unreported rapes out of their asses, and Typhonblue takes those unreported rapes and makes all those females rapists themselves to boot.”

    If they don’t exist, they’re not rapists. And I didn’t make them anything. I asked a question. Could they be silent because they, themselves, participate in a culture of cyclical sexual abuse?

  80. Clarence, one explanation, and a very simple one, for these women who don’t report is that they just don’t think it’s rape – not when it’s happening to them, not when they are doing it to someone else. and further they may not accept the parsing of “it’s being done to me vs. I’m doing it to someone else.” They may insist on seeing it as mutual. What a concept – actual sexual equality in the sex act.

    And about your well-founded concern on who this is going to be read and judged in some quarters, this is what we are dealing with when it comes to any kind of honest dialog, per Pierce Harlan at Community of the Falsely Accused:
    http://www.cotwa.info/2013/04/the-public-discourse-about-sexual.html

    These people are interested in one thing – maintaining their victim narrative, because it’s at the center of their gender identity. And nothing – no facts, no one else’s civil or human rights, nothing whatever – is going to be allowed to disturb their victim narrative.

  81. Pingback: …Elam Screwed the Pooch… | stonerwithaboner

  82. Jim:
    “…and further they may not accept the parsing of “it’s being done to me vs. I’m doing it to someone else.” They may insist on seeing it as mutual. What a concept – actual sexual equality in the sex act.”

    I can’t make heads or tails of this. Perhaps you could explain better?

    As for the point of yours that I do think I understand: I doubt that with all the mandatory rape education and the free publicity that anti-rape and women’s groups get on campus that most women on campus have no idea what rape is. For your idea to be correct there’d have to be TONS of “gray rapes”… but then who said it’s a PROBLEM if such ‘iffy’ situations aren’t reported in the first place? In THAT case (tons of gray rapes) it would be unfair to talk about ‘lack of reporting’ at all, since it , at minimum, wouldn’t even be a sure bet that a rape occurred in the first place.

    I refuse to believe that most people who are not passed out or black out drunk don’t know when their consent was violated by force or threats of force.

  83. Daisy: The fact is, simple education that no, men do not want sex every second the way I raised to believe, would have been helpful.

    It’s called empathy and critical thinking.

    I’m probably aspie, meaning I have trouble recognizing body language, emotions, and comforting people. I can read emotions from their context, sometimes, but that’s mostly from experience, not gut feeling. I’m also pretty bad at expressing my own emotions. To many, it would mean I lack empathy.

    To me, empathy is being able to hypothesize a ‘you’, in the place of the other, any other, and to not do actions against this other that you wouldn’t want done to yourself. To treat others as individuals, because you don’t want to be treated as a stereotype, and to respect that other people may not think exactly the same as you, or have the same ideals, values, etc.

    As such, thinking about it for only 2 seconds, it was easy to guess that men don’t want sex all the time for any reason conceivable with any wet female hole, that women aren’t horribly emotional messes victims of their hormones every month, that maleness doesn’t mean violence, control and a desire to crush people, that femaleness doesn’t mean nurture, weakness and vanity.

    Why can I do that without even trying. Get rid of my bias, because they’re extremely likely to be faulty? Why can’t everyone do this?

    Children may have trouble doing the mature thing, but adults should have no such problem. And I’m saying that as someone who has issues herself with being independent financially, socially, and even to live alone somewhere, who has unresolved childhood traumas, and more – I still do the mature thing of judging people on their own merit, not as walking stereotypes. And I did that since more than half my existence.

    In fact, barring treating specific people based on how they treated me in the past (which seems sensible), I’ve always, as far as I can remember, treated people as unique entities, and not merely parcels from groups or subgroups.

  84. Typhon:
    Let’s see: I have tons of ideas (at least some of which even you would have to admit are equally if not more so plausible than yours) – even a few based on surveys(reasons women do not report) and research (rape fantasy) and you want to reduce this to one factor?

    I’m willing to say that it’s possible that in a VERY FEW cases some woman somewhere gets raped and realizes that 1, or 5 or maybe even ten years earlier she did something similar to a teen male or another young man and feels guilty about that so that she feels she ‘got what she deserved’ or some such, and doesn’t report for that reason.

    But if you are going to maintain this is any kind of common thing I’m afraid you are going to have to go on more than hunches, and provide proof. Because at this point all it looks like is “victim blaming”. Whatever abusive childhood (whether mom or dad neglected him, sexually abused him, physically abused him or whatever) my mom’s rapist MIGHT have had (and lets face it, maybe he was simply a sociopath) she had no hand whatsoever in it.

  85. @ Clarence

    Why are you minimizing my rape at the hands of a female rapist? I can’t believe you would victim blame me like that. It’s hideous.

    Continue and I will ban you from this site.

  86. Typhon :
    Perhaps if you could explain?
    Unless that is that questioning your ideology about why women don’t report rape (because they are all rapists themselves) constitutes victim-blaming you?

    Or maybe you are just an intellectual coward and a bully at heart.

  87. @ Clarence

    “Unless that is that questioning your ideology about why women don’t report rape (because they are all rapists themselves) constitutes victim-blaming you?”

    So questioning your ideology of victim blaming female victims of female rapists constitutes victim-blaming to you?

    “Or maybe you are just an intellectual coward and a bully at heart.”

    Or maybe you are just an intellectual coward and a bully at heart.

  88. LOL.
    Ok, Typhon. But you’ll note I said, it “LOOKS LIKE” not that it was.

    And you’ve yet to tie your ideology to my mom’s rape.
    I rather hope you keep it to college campuses, personally.

  89. @Clarence

    Maybe it would work better to take a bullying analogy.

    You can know what bullying is usually. I’ve been a victim of extensive bullying while I was in elementary and high school.

    But you know what? I’ve done some (generally mild but for a long enough while) bullying on a kid that was probably mentally handicapped, in day camp, so I’m not clean as snow.

    So there’s a few ways for me to go about viewing bullying for me:

    1) Whatever’s been done to me is bad, but what I’ve done to others is not bad. (the “only me matters way”, narcissistic and self-important, no empathy)

    2) What I’ve done is normal, when it’s done to me, it’s also normal. Only more egregious behavior than what I’ve done is actually REAL bullying, worth punishment. (the “I’m just at the edge of acceptable”, rationalizing one’s goodness, egoistical somewhat, but still more empathetic).

    3) No one cares about my suffering, so why should I care about their suffering?! They can all suffer, the way I have. (nihilistic cynical, and usually deeply wounded, person).

    4) All bullying is bullying. I’ve done some and learned better and amended my ways. I should never do some in the future, and will fight for the world to be bullying-free.

    Only few would take the 4 route.
    I’ve been tempted about 3 many many many times in the past. I strive to take route 4, but it certainly isn’t the default one. I have to railroad my sense of justice into it, because to say “Die all, you foolish humanity!” is so tempting, when we see how stupid humanity can be at times.

    People who don’t see their being raped as raped, and have done something similar before (and thus see neither their action nor their victimization as rape), fall under 2 though.

  90. @ Clarence

    “And you’ve yet to tie your ideology to my mom’s rape.”

    And you’ve yet to tie your ideology to my rape.

  91. A 1) person would be rare indeed, or they’re the non-nihilistic version of 3).

    In a world that’s gone to shits, you’ll see a LOT more 1, 2, and 3s than 4s.

    Especially 3 though. Because no one cares, lots of “pull yourself by your bootstraps”, and shaming for not being good enough, when you need actual help, not more shaming.

    My father’s way of going about educating me about stuff, was to try to encourage me some…but the moment I wasn’t succeeding right off, to shame me into trying harder. It eventually made me abandon stuff – backfired really. I’m not one to work well with the stick. I’m stubborn, I’ll rebel if threatened and under duress – but not in the way my father expected.

    If you give in and admit failure, instead of being blackmailed/coerced/taunted into doing something, they lose all power over you.

    So that’s what I did.

  92. “see a two-year-old boy doing nothing in particular and think of rape, as has been seen in links in the comments here recently.”

    What? Can you explain or provide a link?

  93. Tamen have you checked what studies, if any, have been done in Norway on male rape victims?

  94. Clarence,
    “I refuse to believe that most people who are not passed out or black out drunk don’t know when their consent was violated by force or threats of force.”

    It took James Landrith nearly 20 years to realize that a woman straddling him when he came to and continuing to rape him with threats of turning him in as gay if he didn’t go along, and threatening HIM with a rape acusation, was violating his consent. Tewnty years.

    So maybe what you believe or refuse to believe is an unreliable standard for what other people will or will not realaize about things that ahppen to them.

    “I can’t make heads or tails of this. Perhaps you could explain better?

    As for the point of yours that I do think I understand: I doubt that with all the mandatory rape education and the free publicity that anti-rape and women’s groups get on campus that most women on campus have no idea what rape is. For your idea to be correct there’d have to be TONS of “gray rapes”… but then who said it’s a PROBLEM if such ‘iffy’ situations aren’t reported in the first place? In THAT case (tons of gray rapes) it would be unfair to talk about ‘lack of reporting’ at all, since it , at minimum, wouldn’t even be a sure bet that a rape occurred in the first place.’

    You got it.

  95. Dr Jake Ramore:

    What? Can you explain or provide a link?

    Found it. Tamen shared this link in the previous thread, in which the author of The Belle Jar blog imagines her two-year-old son growing up to be a rapist, apparently on the grounds that he’s a boy and that’s what they do.

  96. Gingko:
    To be fair what happened to JL happened over 20 years ago and he was not on a college campus (far as I know he hadn’t even been in college) when it happened to him.

    Read Typhon’s post again. Is she talking about society as a whole or is she talking about college sexual culture? She seems to be claiming her observations are mostly (if not entirely) about campus culture.

    No, I don’t believe males and females on campus today are so uneducated on rape that they can’t wrap their minds around simple consent and drugged sex.

  97. Clarence, I was respsonding to your specific question
    “I refuse to believe that most people who are not passed out or black out drunk don’t know when their consent was violated by force or threats of force.”

    And it dodin’t look restricted to any aprticular setting. But oyu should n’t have to qualify every last statement down to a page fo footnotes, so if oyu were restricitng tito that setting, fair play.

    However, do you really think a young man at college who has a woman force sex on him is going to see it as rape immediately or even within a year?

  98. Patrick, not one fucking word about how her daughter’s hormones will rage and she will force hehrself on some young kid thinking he must wanat it because she is just so goddammed hawt and what a bastard he will be if he doesn’t think so.

  99. Gingko: The conversation has moved on from them and they are out of it, and need to be pushed further out.

    Me too, in that case. Calling all rape victims rapists (which IS what TB wrote; I just reread it to be sure) is just too much for me. If everyone here (besides Clarence) is in agreement that TB is correct in this amoral assertion, I’m clearly the odd one out.

    Pushed further out.

    I can’t (in good conscience) trash Valerie for her Dalyite ideology without also trashing TB for also propagating it, in reverse. That would be inconsistent and wrong. The ideology is just plain wrong, no matter which gender is considered the perfect, canonized (i.e. victimized, martyred, sainted) one.

    Adios yall.

  100. @ Daisy

    I’m really going to take the opinion of a confessed rapist seriously.

  101. Typhon, I’m sure you must be frustrated by the way what you wrote is being misinterpreted, but that was uncalled for, and, frankly, obscene. That’s such a serious accusation that it led to a shitstorm when you made it against hypothetical people. Don’t use it against real people. I suggest you delete that comment and apologise.

  102. @ Daisy

    “TB, according to your formulation, aren’t you one too?”

    Hm. You’d think at this point a rational person would stop and actually question the correctness of their interpretation.

    But no.

    Nope.

    Yes, Daisy, I am calling myself and all other rape victims, rapists.

    It’s rapists all the way down.

  103. Gingko:
    While you might see that post at The Belle Jar as mostly being problematic because of the implicit assumption that no girls ever force themselves on boys, I see the problem being more fundamental by far: what is the sub-context of that whole blog post?
    I’d say it’s not hate, but a closely related emotion: Fear.

    Fear, fear, fear, fear.
    Every human interaction boiled down to rape or potential rape. Males being aware they often have to buy TIME with a female (they don’t buy HER you stupid bitch, she’s as free to ditch him the next day as ever) is conflated with sexual ownership. Men counting coup (which, lets be honest probably a majority of all straight *don’t know about gay men, Ginko*men have done at least a few times in their lives) about how much sex they have or describing their (often exaggerated) sexual exploits is listed as just one step away from Steubenville.

    So yes, she’s a disgusting sexist bigot, who probably would deny females could sexually assault or rape males – it’s all about Privilege dontcha know. But she’s also a fear monger.
    This sort of agitprop IS the sole and only ‘official’ type of sex talk when it comes to anything political or social.that deals with sex these days. Fear and conflict between men and women, conflict and fear and everyone hypervigilant about the slightest chance of objectification or abuse. Meanwhile they talk about sex education, yet the only sex education most young people (esp boys and men) ever receive is what NOT to do, not what to do. There’s no hard and fast rules anyway. To a certain extent we’ve made sexual assaults (and I swear some want to make rape the same way) in the Eye of the Beholder.
    People can’t function in this kind of an environment. Enthusiastic consent would be a good societal meme to strive for (though it shouldn’t be some legal requirement at least for RAPE convictions), but its so wrapped up in feminist Rape Culture (the type that demonizes men and denies female sexual misbehavior) and Legal Dominance Feminism that it’s hardly being pushed on the wider society in any kind of ‘friendly’ form.

    IF the ‘sexual revolution’ of the 1960′s to early 1970′s might have been said (arguably)to have went too far -then the antisexual counter revolution of the past 30 could be said to have went even farther over to the other side. All it’s done is made authoritarians and jailers happy. I fail to see how such rhetoric helps young people (men and women) develop healthy sexualities.

  104. @ Patrick

    According to feminist interpretation of sexual assault, Daisy is a rapist.

    According to her interpretation of my statement, she is calling me a rapist.

    I’m afraid that I don’t agree with your assessment. Unless you also agree that Daisy needs to apologize to me for the original false accusation.

  105. Daisy:

    Calling all rape victims rapists (which IS what TB wrote; I just reread it to be sure) is just too much for me.

    Where did Typhonblue say this? Could you give a quote?

    Typhonblue:

    Perhaps rather than being victims of an indifferent system these silent female rape victims–who are part of a culture of cyclical sexual abuse–fail to come forward to the authorities about their abuse because it would mean admitting that they also are rapists?

    While I understand that this sentence is a question, but you are still proposing an explanation, so it is not surprising that people who disagree with this proposition might be offended.
    I don’t really understand this sentence, so here are some questions:
    1.Could you quantify “these silent rape victims”? You certainly don’t mean all and it is rather obvious that there are some for which the answer to your question will be yes.
    2.What does being “part of a culture of cyclical sexual abuse” mean?
    3.What do you mean by “rape” and by “sexual abuse” in this sentence?

  106. Typhon:

    I’m afraid that I don’t agree with your assessment. Unless you also agree that Daisy needs to apologize to me for the original false accusation.

    What, she started it? No she didn’t. You were the first person to call anybody a rapist. Practice what you preach, take on some fucking agency and OWN YOUR SHIT.

  107. @ Patrick

    Sometimes you can’t get through to people without holding up a mirror.

    She has been persistently misrepresenting what I wrote in the worst way possible. Saying that I’m saying all rape victims are rapists. That is an accusation without merit or basis.

    So I did the same back. Actually not the same at all because she has confessed to “rape” by coercion in this very thread.

    According to the same classification system that those feminist researchers are using to call these college age women rape victims, Daisy _is a rapist_.

  108. “I’d say it’s not hate, but a closely related emotion: Fear.”

    Dead on the money, Clarence. The question is how valid and reality-based that fear is as opposed to how much it is maintained to shore up a toxic gender identity.

    You mentioned the backlash to the sexual revolution – that backlash was on both the right and the left. On the left it took the form of a phase shift in feminism. It comes down to an attemopt to control other people, and sexuality is a favorite Achilles Heel.

    Interestingly one commonality among cult leaders is their almost universal insistnece on controlling the member’s sexuality.

    “Gingko: The conversation has moved on from them and they are out of it, and need to be pushed further out.

    Me too, in that case. Calling all rape victims rapists (which IS what TB wrote; I just reread it to be sure) is just too much for me.”

    Not what I’m talking about Daisy. I am talking about self-appinted Moral Guardians monopolizing the discussion around rape. I wouldn’t call you any kind of a Moral Guardian – your morality doesn’t allow it.

  109. Typhon:
    Well, I’m willing to take your word that you don’t mean that ‘all rape victims are rapists’ though I do wish I knew where you drew the line.
    But as you can see many other people are misunderstanding your post.
    Why not tighten it up some to make it more clear?
    I’ve said you should do that more than once in this thread.
    Now as usual you are free to ignore my advice, my concern, my disagreement.
    However, you are on an Activist site when we are talking A Voice for Men.
    And while Belle Jar Bitch and her ilk won’t give you the time of day if an angel from On High came down to tell her your opinions on this had the blessing of God, aren’t you trying to appeal to people who might know little or nothing about this subject?

    A good faith question.
    I see two main problems with this piece being received by anyone other than the Amen Club of the Mens Rights Movement(which is what that place is rapidly turning into).
    A. You seem to have too much sympathy for rapists. Bad sex? C’mon. It’s one thing to be sympathetic to a rapist who was abused him/herself. Or certainly an accidental rapist, though I doubt there’s many of those. Statuatory rapists are sometimes very sympathetic people. But … Bad sex? Seeming to say that the only reason men rape is that they’ve been raped ?
    B. The last paragraph everyone loves to hate.

    I don’t think you are receiving positive attention for this post due to those two issues. But hey, it’s your life.

  110. “You seem to have too much sympathy for rapists.”

    Fascinating concept this idea of having too much compassion.

  111. Thank you for your question Dr. Ramore.
    I wasn’t aware of any studies done on male victims in Norway. Now you have spurred me on to dig a bit more to see what there is and I found that there has been a few studies done among youths, for instance:

    Mossige S, Huang L. The prevalence of sexual offences and abuse within a Norwegian youth population Nor J Epidemiol 2010; 20(1):53-62 (in Norwegian with a short english abstract. It uses numbers from two large national youth surveys done in 2004 and 2007.

    I haven’t read it in detail yet, but I haven’t found any clear description of the definition of rape which they use. They operate with some categories called “unwanted intercourse” (one for oral, one for anal and one for vaginal) which is separate from rape. I presume this is due to rape requiring physical force or threat of physical force in Norwegian law (unless the victim is incapable of giving consent, for instance by being unconscious). Amnesty and others have been lobbying for removing the requirement of physical force (or threat of physical force) from the legal definition of rape – making it only dependent on absense of consent.

    They found the following:
    About 1 in 10 rape victims are male (4.3% vs 0.4%)
    About 1 in 10 victims of attempted rape are male (7.1% vs 0.7%).

    Unwanted sexual experiences:
    Someone has exposed themselves to you
    Someone has touched in a sexual manner
    You have touched yourself in sexual manner in front of others
    You have touched someone else in a sexual manner
    You had to masturbate while someone watched
    You’ve had intercourse (vaginal)
    You’ve had oral sex
    You’ve had anal sex
    You’ve had another form of sex
    You have experienced one or more experiencesfrom the list

    I’ll list the results from the more serious experiences:
    1 of 3 who report unwanted vaginal intercourse are male (12% vs 6.5%)
    7.7% of girls vs 5.8% of boys reported unwanted oral sex
    2.5% of girls vs 1.5% of boys reported unwanted anal sex

    35.6% of girls and 22.5% of boys report that they’ve experienced one or more items on the list of unwanted sexual experiences.

    They survey asked about the perpetrator in the first and in the last experience. Girls report 99% male perpetrators and 1% female perpetrators – the same for both the first and last. Boys report 50-60% female perpetrator and 50-40% male perpetrators.

    The largest category for perpetrator for both girls and boys are “friend, boyfriend/girlfriend or acquaintance”.

    What form was the first unwanted sexual experience – voluntarily or under duress/force.
    The question was; how well does the following statements describe what happened
    Type: Girls vs Boys who answered that the statement described the experienced well.
    Too young to understand: 25.8% vs 15.3%
    Participated voluntarily, but regretted afterwards: 11.8% vs 8.9%
    Was tricked/conned: 27% vs 13.9%
    Was persuaded: 20.3% vs 10.5%
    Mild pressure: 26.9% vs 10.3%
    Strong pressure: 23% vs 7.4%
    Physical force (constrained/pinned down, threats of violence or violence): 31.1% vs 9.6%

  112. I confess myself bewildered. A frivolous accusation of rape as petty revenge for a slight, and nobody but me bats an eyelid. I suspected this blog had lost it when the bloggers indulged a gendercidal fantasist. You seemed to get your collective act together, but you’ve well and truly lost it now. Ah well. It was good while it lasted.

  113. @ Tamen

    How does this:

    =About 1 in 10 rape victims are male (4.3% vs 0.4%)
    =About 1 in 10 victims of attempted rape are male (7.1% vs 0.7%).

    Jive with this:

    =1 of 3 who report unwanted vaginal intercourse are male (12% vs 6.5%)
    =7.7% of girls vs 5.8% of boys reported unwanted oral sex
    =2.5% of girls vs 1.5% of boys reported unwanted anal sex

  114. Patrick Brown:
    Perhaps I’ve been too busy minding my business or maybe I figured Daisy and Typhon could work them out for themselves.

    As for the genocidal post you refer to, wasn’t the comments section (if I remember correctly) of this blogs readership almost totally against such ideas? Even Schala made only a very limited defense (which in the very limited terms in which Schala would condone such behavior I didn’t think went near as far as the OP) and I haven’t seen that particular poster back here in quite some time, as I don’t think this place was ‘friendly’ enough(uncritically accepting of her demands for terminology changes, etc) for her.

  115. @ Patrick

    “A frivolous accusation”

    Do you or do you not believe that harassing someone into having sex is rape?

    If you don’t, you do realize that the people Daisy is defending do believe that harassing someone into having sex is rape?

    This whole situation is proving my point. Daisy does not view herself as a rapist or a rape victim. Thus she has never “come forward” to the authorities in regards to having been raped.

    Now that’s either because:

    1. She doesn’t want to be seen as a rapist.
    2. She doesn’t want to be seen as a rape victim.
    3. She doesn’t think this classification system for rape is applicable to her life at all.

    Feminists are leveraging the silence of women like Daisy–and other women such as female co-eds in a college campus of cyclical sexual abuse–to remove men’s due process rights because they’ve got people convinced that these women aren’t coming forward because “the system is against them.”

    When, in fact, these “rape victims” are rapists themselves under the feminist classification!

    So in order for them to come forward, they would have to admit to being rapists. Which they won’t do.

    As for why I called Daisy a rapist. According to the viewpoint she’s defending–the viewpoint that she says is calling my statement immoral–she is a rapist.

    I applied the same viewpoint that she is applying to me. If I’m immoral according to the viewpoint she is defending… _than she is a rapist._

  116. Typhon:
    This will be my last word on this subject unless someone attacks me for what I’ve already said.
    Over the years we’ve had many disagreements on various of your posts and blog comments. Mostly they’ve been partial disagreements (good idea, taken too far for the evidence, that sort of thing), occasionally they’ve been total disagreements. Pretty rare, but I seem to recall it happening. And of course you’ve gotten compliments about your posts from me as well. I haven’t been universally critical.

    And there’s never been any rancor. If you’ve ever went other places I’ve posted (which I’m sure you have) I’m sure you’ve never seen me diss you. To my knowledge this current thread is the only time that I’ve even said that something you wrote “seemed” misogynistic or anything like that. I think the worst I’ve ever said about you before is ‘stubborn’ or ‘bullheaded’ or such.

    So please don’t think any of this has been personal and try not to let the fact that I’ve contested your views before color your opinion of why I did so with this post.

    Thanks.

  117. I knew I’d be sorry I wrote that. The song “Policy of Truth” by Depeche Mode is now playing on my laptop.

    Me too, Patrick. Amen brother.

    Again, adios all. And I bid you good night, good night, good night… (Grateful Dead used to end the shows with that song)

  118. That is a great find Tamen. It looks like a very useful study. I`m going to look into it properly. Have you considered writing a “kronikk” about rates of male rape victims or any of the other stuff you discuss on this site? There is just so little being written about mens issues in the MSM in Norway but judging from what I can read in comment sections and online forums people are ready for it.

    Here are some Norwegian links you might find useful:

    http://www.aftenbladet.no/nyheter/okonomi/jobb/Navnet-pavirker-karakterene-3105671.html#.UXb20L9KO-U

    http://www.abcnyheter.no/nyheter/2012/11/14/i-sverige-selger-flere-unge-menn-enn-kvinner-sex

    http://www.dagsavisen.no/samfunn/menn-som-forsorger-kvinner/

    http://www.dagsavisen.no/nyemeninger/alle_meninger/cat1003/subcat1018/thread270394/#post_270394

    http://www.aftenposten.no/jobb/Kvinner-vil-trives-i-jobben_-menn-tar-storre-risiko-7117358.html#.UVWRFVET7q0

    http://dyade.no/acem_sites/dyade_no/tidsskrift/dyade_2008_04_klager_krav_og_krenkelser/anklage_samfunnet

  119. “I suspected this blog had lost it when the bloggers indulged a gendercidal fantasist”

    Patrick, do you remember the fable of the fly and the bull, where the fly rested on the bull’s horn and then apologized for the burden, and the bull said he’d never noticed anything? A powerless trans woman’s gendercidal fantasies are a popcorn fart in relation to any scale of real issues. That whole thing was a side issue and a derailment in that thread and ignoring it was hardly indulging it – rather the opposite, actually.

  120. To everyone who has just declared their intention to flounce(and Clarence. Who I’m seriously hoping is also flouncing.)

    Don’t feel you have to return on my account. In fact I do hope these respective flounces last longer than, you know, an hour.

    Try for a day, a week, a month. Perhaps the rest of my life.

    You wouldn’t want to look weak and inconsistent by returning too soon, now would you?

  121. Typhonblue:

    I strongly suspect it jives (in the context of that report) because rape according to Norwegian law requires use or threat of physical force/violeence while unwanted intercourse does not.

  122. Wow, Typhonblue.
    I’m not flouncing. You’ll have to ban me.
    Go right ahead, chickenshit.

    Jacob was also a victim. But there’s a huge difference between Jacob and you.
    You’ve apparently become a fragile bully unable to handle the results of her own mistakes.
    Amazing. I’ve had alot of respect for you for years and you just lost it with your behavior in this thread.

    So go ahead, chickenshit.

  123. Being called a rapist is beyond the pale. But hey Typhon, since you have all the fucking answers, let me ask:

    WHO would I report my rapes to, in 1976? Exactly who? You realize that it was called “being at the wrong place and wrong time” in 1976, and I would have been laughed out of the police station?

    I mean, I hope you DO realize that date rape and alcohol rape were not regarded as rape back then (which is one thing I was referring to in my confessional comment that you are using as a weapon against me). There were no rape crisis centers in those days … and when there finally was, *I* was one of the people who helped start it. (Should I have “reported it” to myself? Rest assured, I did).

    It was feminists who changed the definition of rape (PS: you’re welcome). Before feminism, it was understood that no women could rape men, let alone children. Thus, FEMINISM MADE IT POSSIBLE FOR YOU TO CALL YOUR MOTHER A RAPIST. (again, you’re welcome!) It would have been a laughable charge until, say, 1983-84, when sex-abuse/molestation issues surfaced on the feminist agenda. The concept of women-as-abusers (of anybody, including children and animals) was not even seriously addressed until then. (And this is also why it took James Landrith so long.)

    As late as 1982, women in AA said they/we had been “taken advantage of” while drunk, we did not use the word rape. It was considered our own fault, and we believed that it was. Many of us, myself included, still do. (I will never be fully able to shake that idea, since it became a cornerstone of my sobriety.)

    Question: How would I have known that I was doing wrong in harassing a man, since I did not even know that *I* had been raped? We are talking about the 70s, which I am sure you remember very well?

    If not, do you think you are qualified in judging my comment about the mores of the time, since you were not there? And you take out of that comment that I am a rapist?

    I am sick of the OVERT AGEISM of comparing the mores of nearly four decades ago to the mores of the hip, young, cool, educated pomo ladies of the present day, like Typhon Blue, who have the benefit of the work *I DID*… (I guess we can also call Abe Lincoln a racist, since, you know, he believed in segregation! Right? Although, I hardly believe that tells the whole story, now does it?)

    I was talking about the mores of yesterday, and I get called a rapist. This is a great example of why older people rarely post on blogs… hope you don’t mind if I use this as an example of ageism on MY blog?

    Not sure you are a rapist, but most assuredly, an ageist.

    Now, I will flounce, if you insist. Southern ladies usually get smelling salts and Valium when they flounce… so where is MINE?!? I demand drugs (no generics) if I am going to flounce in high style.

  124. You wouldn’t want to look weak and inconsistent by returning too soon, now would you?

    Yes, please ban me too. I want the feather in my cap. I have been accused of “cozying up to MRAs”–so this banning will rehab my reputation nicely.

    And just think: Feministing, Pandagon, Genderratic … such a nice symmetry.

  125. And by ‘own mistakes’ I mean how other people in this thread whom I’ve never contacted about this issue, supported in their rightful or wrong attacks on your post or mistakes about what you said. This post drove them away I had nothing to do with it.
    But it’s good to know that Poor lil Typhon hates me too for some reason.

    Anyway if you aren’t gutless you’ll let me hang around to talk to Gingko and whomever else will talk to me. I won’t bother you. But I suspect you are gutless and /or inebriated with your pathetic little power on this blog.

    “Man up!” sister and take responsibility for your own mistake.

  126. @ Clarence

    I’m not going to ban you. You will have to leave of your own accord.

    @ Daisy

    Why am I not surprised you’re back! And wow, pulling out the stops are we?

    “Being called a rapist is beyond the pale.”

    So you don’t agree with the world view that’s had you labeling me “immoral” for almost the entirity of this thread?

    Because, guess what, harassing someone into sex is rape according to the feminists you hang with.

    “FEMINISM MADE IT POSSIBLE FOR YOU TO CALL YOUR MOTHER A RAPIST.”

    When did I say it was my mother who raped me?

    The _female acquaintance_ who raped me didn’t actually rape me under Mary Koss’s or the CDC’s definition of rape. Insofar feminists are looking to expand the definition of rape, they do so while trying to hide the fact that this expanded definition reveals victims of female rapists. So, no, feminists are not working to get what happened to me recognized as rape.

    Far from it.

    Now I have endured both of you telling me what you think of me.

    Let me tell you what I think of you.

    I think you’re both trolls who argue in bad faith. I think you both deliberately distort what your opponents say and manufacture outrages.

    You, Daisy, think I owe something to you and feminism. I don’t.

    You, Clarence, seem to have some sort of fixation in which you attempt to manufacture a “relationship” with me through contrived conflict. Then, like any bully or abuser, you offer a “reconciliation.”

    I’m afraid neither of you are arguing in good faith so… good day to you.

  127. Gingko: A powerless trans woman’s gendercidal fantasies are a popcorn fart in relation to any scale of real issues. That whole thing was a side issue and a derailment in that thread and ignoring it was hardly indulging it – rather the opposite, actually.

    Ah, so gendercidal fantasies are acceptable from trans women, just not from cis women or Mary Daly? Got it.

    So what trans women do is sad, silly, pathetic, and should be ignored. But what cis women do is REAL and HAS CONSEQUENCES. Hm. I see.

    See Valerie, you can rage against men until the cows come home and even plot their ultimate demise in the womb, but because you have a penis, your words are totally neutralized and even ignored. Although I think of you/your opinions as equal to what any cis woman says (since you are highly educated as well as an influential vlogger), and thus, hold you equally accountable, Gingko obviously does not. Go figure!

    I learn so much here.

  128. I’d wonder how literally dozens if not hundreds of threads on this blog alone where I don’t even address you once, the fact there’s probably been periods of two or three months where I haven’t even addresed you here or anywhere or some threads where I make one or two complimentary comments fits into your little victim narrative Typhon, but whatever.

  129. Daisy Deadhead:
    I’ve mostly either ignored you or been kind to you on this blog because I choose to try and keep the peace, and even though I am not your friend (due to the past) I do not consider myself your enemy.. And sometimes you’ve brought knowledge to the table (certain parts of the history of feminism) or been right about this or that issue.
    But you are not being fair in how you are reading Gingko’s comment. He never said that comment was ok, and lets be fair -that comment was DESTROYED by the commenters here, not celebrated.
    If you hate this blog you should leave it, esp if you can’t separate Gingko from Typhon. I’d also urge you to consider taking your own advice regarding flouncing. I honestly, personally, can care less whether you stay or go, I also don’t consider you a ‘rapist’ in the sense that some radfems would, and I think some of the things you do on your blog are both useful and brave. But if you stay here, it’s only fair to ask that you give people a chance. If you are so embittered you can’t do that, then why stay here?

  130. Clarence, good point. I am just very, very tired of Gingko constantly defending TB.

    Also, I thought we needed to come down on Valerie as hard as on any other feminist who talks about getting rid of the men, like they are weeds or fleas or something. I thought people were deliberately going easy on her, which just made her get more and more outrageous.

    Therefore *I* ended up as the bad guy, and I am the one she holds accountable for her departure from here.

    Clarence: I honestly, personally, can care less whether you stay or go,

    Oh poo. :( I have grown to really appreciate your sense of fairness.

    I read the exchange on AVFM (regarding the terrorism), and you did good. I found that whole post… rather amazing.

  131. TB: Because, guess what, harassing someone into sex is rape according to the feminists you hang with.

    Are you saying the ‘feminists I hang with’ eventually made it possible for men to claim they were raped? Glad to see you admit this, finally!

    Is feminism GREAT or what?

    You, Daisy, think I owe something to you and feminism. I don’t.

    Of course not, you are an affluent, haughty, educated woman (note: women were not educated en masse in the West until Mary Wollstonecraft agitated to include women in public education… then again, you probably came from a rich family, so the education of the masses is way below your concern… nevermind) … who sprang fully formed from the forehead of Zeus. The fact is, highly-opinionated women like you were usually told to shut up 40 years ago, and were not seriously listened to. (well, then again, I guess rich women were? I am talking about working class/poor women like myself.) Since you weren’t there, you will just have to take my word for it. Or maybe you should understand that other women did not have the privileges your class afforded YOU, until there was feminism.

    And that is true whether you like it, believe it, or not. The whole discussion we are having about rape, was because of the work of me and women like me. Period. There was no such discussion before we started it. If you can find one pre-70s (i.e. before the influence of feminism in the culture), please link it here. Any article. Any book. Anything.

    Go ahead, I’ll wait.

  132. BTW, could you answer my question:

    WHO would I report my rapes to, in 1976? Exactly who?

    Are you saying my drunken passed-out episode *wouldn’t* be laughed out of the police station in 1976?

    Because yes, it would have been.

    The fact that you don’t know this, is striking.

  133. My wanderlust took me away from GendErratic for a bit, I come back, and find this. Tut, tut.

    Okay, so first off, I completely understand what Typhon was getting at, especially having been a college student recently, and having been in the odd position of being exposed to the Greek life not as a freshman, but instead as a senior with a little more perspective.

    Typhon is correct, at least partially, in the sense that many of the women who are victims on campus are also perpetrators. Obviously not all, and it is no tit-for-tat situation, but I have seen enough perpetuation of “campus rape culture” on both (all) sides of the fence to know that the people who are most likely to be victimized are also the most likely to be heavily invested in the sexual aggression that goes around campus.* Thus, her point that some portion (obviously we can’t say how much) of the “silent victims” don’t feel victimized because: 1) They have done or would do the same thing without guilt 2) This is considered SOP or 3) they weren’t hurt by what happened (or all three to varying degrees).

    That said, Typhon, your writing didn’t seem very clear to me, and it took me a few read-throughs to get to that understanding. It really did seem like what you were saying is that there is some kind of karmic retribution system going on, and each victim was themselves a perpetrator (with the implication that the victims deserved it). If I understand correctly, that is what Clarence and Daisy were originally concerned with, for obvious reasons. I would hope that next time if someone misinterprets your writings, you realize it is likely a failure on your part, not theirs. You can either explain yourself clearly the first time, or the 10th time. And I don’t think name calling is very appropriate.

    Daisy:

    I think we did a pretty good job of telling Valerie where to shove her “utopia”. Just like we would if Valerie Solanas wandered into our discussions. I don’t think anyone forgave her, or forgot what she said.

    * One example. I won’t name which frat and which sorority that I have first hand knowledge of, because I want to protect my real-world friends who were in them. But I know of one frat that routinely hired female prostitutes to “teach the pledges (18 yrs old) alcohol awareness”. This involved teaching them how great alcohol is by having the hookers pour drinks down their own bodies and into the guys waiting mouths.

    Sounds totally outrageous, but I also know of one sorority that did the same thing with male prostitutes. As a matter of fact, my friend who was in that particular sorority was 17 at the time, so go ahead and throw corrupting a minor and statutory rape (statutory sexual assault?) on to the list of crimes that sorority violated at that time. Although trust me, this girl was mature enough at 17 to handle it.

    The only other thing I will say is that this sorority was not Zeta Tau Alpha, cause Zetas are classy ladies.

  134. Hey everybody. I’m a long time reader, but rare poster.

    Lately, I’ve been looking 4 more blogs 2 posit my opinion since being banned at tgmp for taking pro male stances.

    As far as TyphonBlue’s quote that is causing a ruckus, there is a tried & true technique I learned to see if something is misogynist or misandrist that I leanred way back on Glenn Sacks blog.

    Reverse the genders. That’s what this blog did regarding the article about the female rapist who imprisoned her lover for 2 days in Germany.

    So, let’s reverse the genders & see how it reads?

    “While we’re on the subject of male-perpetuated sexual abuse, most surveys that ask college age men about the sexual abuse they perpetrate find a shocking levels of male-perpetrated sexual abuse. Other surveys find that women who perpetuate sexual abuse are also sexually abused, suggesting a cycle of sexual abuse on college campuses. Perhaps rather than being victims of an indifferent system these silent male rape victims–who are part of a culture of cyclical sexual abuse–fail to come forward to the authorities about their abuse because it would mean admitting that they also are rapists? ”

    Is it just me, or does it seem that by twisting the genders, the “outrageous” declaration becomes a dry read? I believe the only reason TB’s statement seemed outrageous is because the idea that women rarely have agency & men always do is so prevalent.

    Also, Clarence I don’t think what most people would respond is necessarily a good argument. We all know that misandry is much more pervasive & insidious than misogyny (mostly because women’s groups have been identifying what is & isn’t misogyny for 40 years).

    If you’re going to use the populace as evidence of misogyny, my response would be: Is this the same populace that barely blinks an eye at Sharon Osbourne mocking a male victims of sexual mutilation to an audience of millions while a female panel & audience titters uproarisly?

  135. John D:

    “While we’re on the subject of male-perpetuated sexual abuse, most surveys that ask college age men about the sexual abuse they perpetrate find a shocking levels of male-perpetrated sexual abuse. Other surveys find that women who perpetuate sexual abuse are also sexually abused, suggesting a cycle of sexual abuse on college campuses. Perhaps rather than being victims of an indifferent system these silent male rape victims–who are part of a culture of cyclical sexual abuse–fail to come forward to the authorities about their abuse because it would mean admitting that they also are rapists? ”

    I find it equally outrageous.
    And the popularity of misandry in larger society is NOT an argument, because even if you take it is true it’s the larger society that AVFM is supposed to be appealing to.

    Why demonize rape victims of either sex? Just how does this look good?

  136. Equilibrium Shift:

    “Typhon is correct, at least partially, in the sense that many of the women who are victims on campus are also perpetrators. Obviously not all, and it is no tit-for-tat situation, but I have seen enough perpetuation of “campus rape culture” on both (all) sides of the fence to know that the people who are most likely to be victimized are also the most likely to be heavily invested in the sexual aggression that goes around campus.* Thus, her point that some portion (obviously we can’t say how much) of the “silent victims” don’t feel victimized because: 1) They have done or would do the same thing without guilt 2) This is considered SOP or 3) they weren’t hurt by what happened (or all three to varying degrees).”

    Well, I don’t know about anyone else, but I’ve never denied it’s a possibility.
    That’s not the point though. The language, as written is problematic because it implies that most rape victims on campus (hell, it seems to be saying “all”) rape. Now by some radfem analysis – if applied fairly to both sexes – this is true. But Typhon doesn’t SAY anything in the post to indicate that she is using radfem analysis so the reader , I suppose , must magically infer it.

    Indeed, I think that’s why Daisy asked her if she was a rapist herself by her own definitions, and look at her reaction to THAT. And even if the above explanation was the true one about Typhon’s intentions for her essay, WHERE is she busy explaining her intentions?
    Not A Voice For Men where she is getting unqualified ass-kissing (at least the last time I looked) and where this piece will eventually be sent out from to confuse feminists and non-feminists in the larger society everywhere.
    Nope. She comes here to this much more obscure blog and I guess tries to explain her intent for awhile until she gives way to anger, fear, and snark. Of course at this point I’m not even sure what her real intent for this part of her essay was.

    Unfortunately, even though it’s not something I like to think, intent doesn’t matter when it comes to public relations and few people will end up here to see Typhon’s attempted clarifications about things.

  137. John D, I too did the gender swap of TB’s comments and also came to the same conclusion. What’s more, Clarence has a strong personal bias that is clearly clouding his judgement. Just like the feminists who claim that there is absolutely no such thing as a false rape accusation, he has an immense amount of trouble differentiating between some or most and all. Thus he sees the entire discussion as a personal offense to some personal anecdote that he feels is a solid basis for forming his entire take on reality. Ladies and gentlemen, a White Knight is born.

    My mother never sexually abused me or either of my brothers; I find it hard to believe she ever had the time or inclination to sexually abuse anyone, and of course she went to the cops… I’m sure she’d appreciate Typhon basically accusing her of raping her rapist or something.

    Here, Clarence misses the entire premise, because TB was talking about a population of women who don’t go to the police and who don’t believe they were raped. Clarence nevertheless sees that as an immense affront to his family’s experience. For absolutely no good reason. He then further screws the pooch by making it out as though TB were saying that there is literally a one for one tit for tat of every rape victim raping their rapist. His entire position, all the walls of text which aren’t even worth reading, are based on such tragic logic fails.

    The point that TB was making should be obvious to anyone who thinks about it objectively. It’s well known that DV is most commonly reciprocal and that there is a “codependency” phenomenon with DV victims. And we know that being a victim of sexual violence is a predictor for becoming a rapist. The only mental jump that’s really required here is to surmise that if there is a group of both men and women who have been affected in such ways, this could make for an ongoing reciprocal process. I don’t feel that this is a bad theory at all. It definitely coincides with my own experiences and observations.

  138. “… I’m sure she’d appreciate Typhon basically accusing her of raping her rapist or something.”

    It’s nice you cut off the prior part with my “if” clause.
    Because that’s the point of my whole complaint: Typhon’s whole thing looks like she claimed every rape victim WHO DOESN’T REPORT THEIR RAPE is ONLY doing so because they are rapists themselves.

    The caps are to emphasize this so that your first grade level reading comprehension is taken into account.

    “Here, Clarence misses the entire premise, because TB was talking about a population of women who don’t go to the police and who don’t believe they were raped. Clarence nevertheless sees that as an immense affront to his family’s experience. For absolutely no good reason. He then further screws the pooch by making it out as though TB were saying that there is literally a one for one tit for tat of every rape victim raping their rapist. His entire position, all the walls of text which aren’t even worth reading, are based on such tragic logic fails.”

    So far in this thread at least 4 people have in parts, or in whole seen exactly what I saw. Either we are all stupid, we are all evil , or Typhonblue’s ability to write what is called a “persuasive” essay is not the best.
    Several times in this thread I’ve mentioned that there are maybe one or two parts that could and should be re-written or even dropped. It shouldn’t be a big deal for me to point out that the essay BEGS to be misunderstood (assuming once again that Typhon’s “intent” is good) because it is POORLY WRITTEN.

    As far as “personal” stuff, I remember the one big thread I got in an argument with you concerning the Aurora Theater shooting. You’ve still got a bug in your ass about that, as well as your stupid retarded accusations that me and Daisy (disproven by subsequent events and threads including the fact I never got involved when Daisy tried to prove you were messing with her blog and weren’t who you claimed to be) were in some sort of tag team on poor old DUNGone.

    Your only other comment in this thread was a personal attack on me after I put out some very personal information that I’ve never shared elsewhere.

    Stay classy, Dungone.

  139. I am going to say this only once. This thread is about this post. any commnet referencing Typhon’s post on that other blog is off topic and will be deleted.

    Usually I like thread drift but this derailment has gone far enough. The details are unimportant to me.

  140. Sorry, Ginkgo I missed your comment.

    Feel free to delete my comment if you want.

    [ED--I'm loathe to delete your comment as it was substantive and presented an interesting Addendum. I am considering moving it instead.]

  141. I saw the post, Tamen. That’s good work and that’s exactly the right place to post it, where it will get a wide readership, and a readership of young readers.

  142. Pingback: MALE DISPOSABILITY – Erasing male rape victims, Part II – Tamen evaluates a British and a Norwegian study on rape victims and finds invalidating methodological errors | GendErratic

  143. @Schala

    What you refer to is described by John Ralston Saul as the quality of mind known as “Common Sense”. It’s been bastardised and degraded as a quality in the Age of False Individualism in which we are stuck, but it can best be defined as societal knowledge balanced by other qualities of mind (ethics, imagination, intuition, memory, reason). The difference between empathy and common sense is the difference between emotion and thought – Common Sense, a knowledge of _the other_, allows a person to map new pathways of emotion – we can cultivate compassion without any intuition (utilitarian gut feeling) or “woman’s ways of knowing” required.

    Come to think of it, aren’t their any people put off by “women;s ways of knowing” as a concept? It seems to claim simultaneously that women are separate from “the other” ie. they cannot be known by anyone, and at the same time thought is both above and beneath them. The mind boggles at this indictment of the human female – an indictment n0-one deserves.

  144. Welcome, Robert.

    “It’s been bastardised and degraded as a quality in the Age of False Individualism.”

    Yes. People forget the “common” part of common sense. People also fetishize the individual to the point where they are talking entirely out of their id – nothing has to be consistent with anything else, nothing has to correspond with any kind of external reality, everything is constructed and arbitrary. It’s all childish self-indulgence.

    “It seems to claim simultaneously that women are separate from “the other” ie. they cannot be known by anyone, and at the same time thought is both above and beneath them.”

    I call this kind of thing “toxic femininity”. it’s passive aggressive bullshit, and as such is a very attractive and addictive power tactic. As you point out it is misogynistic. But back to the passive aggressive aspect; it allows women to both portray themselves as mysterious and “Other”, and then to turn around and claim they are being “othered”, woe is me, sniff, sniff, now make it all up to me.

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  147. While I enjoyed reading through the article and some of the contents, I stopped reading when it became a 4 way gripe fest. If I wanted to hear people playing “but you said……!” I’d go back to Tumblr and it’s abusive excuse for feminism. So thanks to those of you who actually contributed something useful to the conversation.

  148. Welcome, A,

    “While I enjoyed reading through the article and some of the contents, I stopped reading when it became a 4 way gripe fest. If I wanted to hear people playing “but you said……!” I’d go back to Tumblr and it’s abusive excuse for feminism.”

    No shit. We put some fixes in place around here due to the clusterfuck this thresd became. Hope you stick around.

  149. Pingback: IT’S SHIT LIKE THIS, FEMINISTS – If you want to talk about rape….. | GendErratic

  150. Fascinating and disturbing analysis. Regarding the mother’s rape of her son, however, I don’t understand that story’s relevance to the article. For one thing, it’s penetrative rape and would thus be considered rape by the CDC study. For another, the mother was not charged with something called “rape” because there is no such charge in Arizona.

    Possible charges in that state would be:
    13-1404 Sexual abuse – does not apply to children under 15 except for offenses involving only the female breast
    13-1405 Sexual conduct with a minor – sexual intercourse with anyone under 18 with mandatory sentencing when perpetrator is a parent
    13-1406 Sexual assault – this would be the traditional rape charge, applicable in this case but sentencing would be carried out in accordance with 13-1405
    13-1410 Molestation of a child – sexual contact with a child under 15, also applicable here
    13-1417 Continuous sexual abuse of a child – likely not feasible in this case as charge requires at least 3 acts over a period of at least 3 months (oddly child is defined as under 14 here)
    13-1423 Violent Sexual Assault – doesn’t not apply as prior felony sexual offense conviction is required.

    The harshest possible sentencing in this case results from what was charged- sexual conduct with a minor (“conduct” not “misconduct”). This is the most aggressive single charge in part due to the harsher sentencing imposed on parents. It’s also a Class 2 felony, which is the same class as the most severe forms of sexual assault. As for the child abuse charge, that’s a Class 2 felony (13-3623) as well in this case as it was intentional and the victim was under 15.

    The only more severe felonies are murder (Class 1 felonies), and, as is true in most states, there is no legal construct called “rape” in Arizona. That said, they could have charged sexual assault as well as molestation in addition to sexual conduct with a minor. They may not have done this due to the nature of the jury instructions for the charges or because juries may be less inclined to convict a mother on those charges. It’s also of course possible (I’d even say likely) that the news coverage wasn’t accurate about the charges. At least one source implied these two were not the only charges.

    I tried to pull up the court records to confirm the charges, but all I found was a timeline of court events. The trial is scheduled for this April. It looks like they may be going for a life sentence, thus the delay. Without knowing more details about the evidence (or more Arizona law), it’s impossible to say whether the woman is being undercharged. What is clear, however, is that she is facing very serious felony charges in this matter; it’s in no way being swept under the rug or ignored. What disturbs me more is that the news coverage of this incident was absolutely abysmal; no mainstream coverage at all. Perhaps that will change with the trial.

    Check out Arizona Criminal Code Chapter 14 to confirm: http://www.azleg.gov/arizonarevisedstatutes.asp?Title=13
    Also the case details will end up here, if you’d care to follow the case: http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/publicaccess/caselookup.aspx?AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1

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  154. Pingback: DOUBLE STANDARDS – The feminism’s sexist record on the subject of rape | GendErratic

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