FEMALE PRIVILEGE – Donglegate – This is what sexual entitlement looks like

Patrick Brown makes a very good point in this thread about women imposing their own standards of decency and speech on men in the workplace, or elsewhere for that matter:

Patrick Brown on 2013-03-26 at 9:51 am said:
Thing is though – as you point out with your link – it’s not actually a female norm. Listen in to a conversation between women and it’ll be every bit as filthy as a conversation between men. The books and magazines women read are as full of sexual references as anything men consume. It is not a female norm to recoil from mild sexual innuendo. This isn’t a norm of behaviour that’s assumed to apply when it doesn’t – nothing that innocent. It’s power. Richards will make dick jokes with guys she knows and likes, because fundamentally, she doesn’t actually object to dick jokes. But she reserves the right to make men she doesn’t know or like suffer for innocuous innuendo, because she can.

In this type of sexual entitlement a woman is entitled to use sexuality as a weapon against men. She can weaponize their comments against them simply by complaining to some authority, some Daddy figure, some patriarchal power elite. It’s very Victorian. In fact it really is Victorian.

dungone on 2013-03-26 at 10:38 am said:
@Patrick, yeah I agree with you. The goal seems to be to make men as uncomfortable as possible while allowing women to express their own sexuality to their hearts’ content. It’s definitely all about power and it is reflected by the lopsided costs of sexual access in our culture.
Donglegate, the way I see it, is really no different from Elevatorgate and both are no different than this: http://now.msn.com/heather-hayes-arrested-for-attacking-boyfriend-eric-zuber-because-he-would-not-have-sex-with-her At the end of the day, each one involves an attention-starved woman who lashed out because she was not satisfied with the exact nature of the sexual dynamic between herself and a male, even though none of the men had done a single thing wrong.

Schala went on to expand the discussion by connecting it to the classing of gender. She points out that female status entitles a person to take offense at things the lower orders may not, and also to have that sense of offense taken seriously and be acted upon.

Schala on 2013-03-26 at 10:00 am said:
This is a “female gender role is aristocracy” remnant from conservative Victorian-era roles.
The slaves, the working-class people and even the middle-class people cannot complain much about what is asked of them. They do it or they get sacked, out of work, starving, no insurance, and they die. Even truly hostile environment.
But the aristocrat? Their livelihood is usually nothing that they ‘do’, unless they’re the public face of a super rich company. Regardless, they can refuse, impose their standards, and “pay someone to do it” when they don’t like the work.

This Richards Affair is ripping a lot of scabs and septic bandages off.

56 thoughts on “FEMALE PRIVILEGE – Donglegate – This is what sexual entitlement looks like

  1. I remember a little before I started blogging, I’d visit’s threads on yelp…

    There were a few women who would make vulgar/sexual comments. Most the regular guys would just kind of lay back or occasionally make a comment when a girl basically directed a comment at that specific guy. There’d always be a new guy who would wander into the conversation and make a sexual comment matching what was going on in the thread. There’s be all kinds of people calling him a pervert and asking the moderators to ban him. If the conversation was polite and he came in with that kind of language, it would be one thing to have that reaction. But when the guy just matched what was already being said and the two strikes against him were his gender and not being part of the click, I saw the place was fucked…

  2. this is tangentaly related…

    here some yelpers review a strip club, but trash it because one guy and a group of girls weren’t given privilge, they were treated just the same as the “perverts” who make the business and dancers money.

    1.0 star rating
    5/22/2008

    I hate you O’Farrell Theatre.

    I hate you because all I ever wanted to do was love you and you wouldn’t let me. For about 10 years now, I have been hearing legendary stories about you. My friends have told me tales that sounded like urban legends. They reported how cool and naughty and scandalous and totally awesome you were, but last week you pretty much told me there was no Easter Bunny and that Santa Claus is actually just a part time guy in a suit at the mall. You, O’Farrell Theatre, killed my friggin dream.

    I was out with one guy and a gaggle of hot girls last week and while a gaggle may not sound that hot to you, just work with me here, we were looking good and we all had dolla dolla bills y’all in hand and were so ready to blow some dough. So after hitting the ATM and taking out a few hundred bucks we rolled up to the O’Farrell. We even took a pre-Cherry-poppin picture in front of the place to mark this great day in history. Yes, we were THAT excited to go.

    So we walk in and instantly get hit with attitude. This was very strange to me, because as a strip club loving girl who has frequented and patronized many a joint in her day, they are usually pretty happy when girls come in. Not the case here as we were all told it would be $40 a pop. WHAT? A cover is one thing, but $40 a pop! Good Christ on a cracker, you must be joking. Newp. Our one male friend then decided to reason with the guy and did what any respectable gentleman would have done and said, “C’mon man, it’s a group of girls, we all have money to spend, can’t you hook us up on the cover, just a little. $40 sounds kinda high.” He then looked us up and down and all over, and decided that 2 of us, could get in for free, but the rest would have to pay. $120 for 3 people to get in. Yeah.

    So I laughed, thinking, c’mon, in all of my years of tit-tay bars and a fat wad of cash clearly visible, they are pulling this crap? Wow, just wow. Apparently, our laughter and surprised reactions weren’t going over very well because the next thing I knew, we were told, and I quote by the angry little man in charge, “Get the fuck out of here, I’m tired of listening to your shit!!!” To which the bouncer started closing in and well, we left.

    Unbelievable. I’ve rarely paid a cover when there were a bunch of girls, let alone a $40 cover to get into a strip club, but I guess the O’Farrell Theatre is too cool for my school. Whatevs, time for me to find a new life’s goal.

    Listed in: San Francisco Bars!

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    Review from Ruggy J.
    Photo of Ruggy J.

    Elite ’13
    5000 friends
    1496 reviews

    Ruggy J.

    New York, NY
    1.0 star rating
    5/22/2008

    Boy, it’s takes a lot for the Rug Doctor to write a 1 star review of an establishment where sweet, sweet boobies are the primary business model.

    I wouldn’t say I’m a strip club junkie by any means, but I’ve been to my fair share in the 25 years I’ve roamed this Earth. Most of the time, an adult establishment’s clientele consists of traveling businessmen from Orlando who are hundreds of miles away from their significant others, and looking to get frisky. They are usually overweight, balding and puffing on cigars…’cuz when the cat’s away, the mice will play, ya dig?

    Now, if I were a club owner, and I was used to dealing with these sweaty mongoloids night-after-night, I can only imagine that I’d welcome four hot women into my facility without hesitation. In fact, they’d be comped. NO cover whatsoever. The reason I can make this ASSumption is because I’ve seen it happen at almost every titty bar I’ve ever visited. It’s a pretty common thing. No cover for ladies. Welllllll, that wasn’t the case here, at the legendary O’Farrell’s…

    Last week, I was rip-roaring my way through San Francisco on a Monday night. Somehow, 5 of us ended up here. Myself, and four women. I thought for SURE the club would be stoked on the notion of four attractive chicks throwin’ down dolla bills on-stage. Boy, was I wrong.

    The cover to get in was $40 a head. I’ve been to some pretty nice strip clubs in Vegas, Chicago, etc…and the cover was nowhere near that price. Especially on a Monday! Homeboy working the front was “cutting us a deal” by only charging $120 for the five of us. Are you kidding me??? I don’t mind throwing down two Jackson’s, being the only guy in the group and all…but you’re really gonna charge that much for four chicks who wanna see some ass ‘n titties? You’re HIGH, dude!

    He tried to say that the club was so busy, he couldn’t allow any free passes…however, I think I heard a few crickets squawking from the main theater. The place was DEAD.

    After trying to reason w/ the guy for a few minutes, he’d finally had enough. He actually told me, “get the fuck out of here, I’m tired of your bullshit.”

    Ummmmm, huh? Really dude? You’re being serious right now? Ever cared to study strip club etiquette?

    Pardon my French, door guy…but you’re an asshole!

    The end.

    Listed in: “From Oakland to Sac Town……, Ear Muffs!

    http://www.yelp.com/biz/mitchell-brothers-o-farrell-theatre-san-francisco

    Now I understand that many people of both genders would find strip clubs sleazy, but at what other business would you demand a discount then trash them in the review when you weren’t given that discount. In fact, restaurants usually put a gratuity onto the bill for big groups….

  3. Now I understand that many people of both genders would find strip clubs sleazy, but at what other business would you demand a discount then trash them in the review when you weren’t given that discount. In fact, restaurants usually put a gratuity onto the bill for big groups….

    Moreso if that discount isn’t based on “I’m Arnold, I did huge blockbuster movies” but solely “I got a vagina and look decent”.

    The entitlement, wow.

    Guys might be entitled, when they got things under their belt (ie proven status), but I’ve never seen guys go on about how they’re owed stuff because they got a penis and nothing else.

    Well, I guess narcissistic guys could be an exception (super inflated view of their value).

    Narcissism is encouraged by the female gender role, it starts with Disney princesses. Regardless of it reaching clinical threshold or simply being assholish traits that resemble narcissism, it’s heavily encouraged in women from a young age, and heavily discouraged in men from a young age.

    Men are encouraged to go dark triad, and some do. Many have ethical concerns though.

  4. I do not understand their reasoning. Does the bank credit you double if the money you give the came to you via a woman? Do they expect there presence to some how increase patronage? The already has attractive women taking their clothes off, I cannot see a couple of female audience members improving everyone’s night. (Also I’ve got to laugh at how the men who visit the clubs are scuzz, while they are rockin chicks).

    My guess is that a pack of hetero girls who are only their to shock themselves tip low, buy few dances, make the performers uncomfortable ( they are basically their for a freak show, not erotica) and overall are poor customers. Management probably got fed up and told the door “no special treatment” ( or the door has a head on his shoulders and figured this out for himself)

  5. I do not understand their reasoning. Does the bank credit you double if the money you give the came to you via a woman?

    Bars and clubs are said to give special treatment to their female customers (no cover, free drinks) because it attracts more women, and more women attracts more men.

    Might have been true in 1950s or earlier, when women wouldn’t drink often and wouldn’t have much money. I think it’s just a remnant from that era nowadays:

    Women go dance without needing to go for free.
    Women go drink (probably with a bunch of friends, male and female both) without needing to go for free.
    Men go drink in bars without needing women to floor the place, either.

    And one half getting free stuff while the other subsidizes it awkwardly feeds into an image of the male client as worthless. If male clients are your majority of clients (ie why you claim to do Ladies’ night etc), why spite them by making them pay more? Shouldn’t you cater to your regulars, not give them the cold shoulder?

    It’s even worse in BDSM nights. Woman alone pays very little, maybe nothing. Couple of man+woman pays a bit more, and man alone pays the most.

    Because it’s almost understood that perverted men would come anyway and they’re undesirables, while more women ‘never hurts’ because its considered eye candy.

    All based on Victorian notions:

    Men richer, women more moral (less sins, and lust+drinking are considered sins), and men led by their penis.

    Notions that are an insult to all men and women. They should go away for that alone.

  6. Oh I understand in general why they think more woman= more money. But in this case they already have plenty of women in the bar, taking their clothes off even. Unless the ones trying to get in were planning on spontaneously joining in with the show, I am hard pressed to find a rational explanation for their self estimation of superior value (aside from everything we talk about here always ;)

    As a side note, ladies nights have recently been banned in my state :)

  7. I wont comment on how this would affect Titty bars but regular clubs that have more women generally attract more men. Regardless of how much society may have changed in the last couple of decades men are still primarily the pursuers. So, the more the opportunity to pursue usually means the more lucrative it is for the bar to have women there. Hence the reason for the freebies. That makes perfectly reasonable business sense.

  8. By the way, women at Titty bars will usually make “most” men there a little uncomfortable. They don’t want to be judged as perverted and we know the women watching will be viewed as “just having fun”. It may be that that bar saw the women as a negative and charged them more on purpose. The ladies judged over estimated their importance. ;)

  9. I wont comment on how this would affect Titty bars but regular clubs that have more women generally attract more men. Regardless of how much society may have changed in the last couple of decades men are still primarily the pursuers. So, the more the opportunity to pursue usually means the more lucrative it is for the bar to have women there. Hence the reason for the freebies. That makes perfectly reasonable business sense.

    Maybe, but dancing has been coded as a girly thing already. More girls are already interested (because they’re not trained to hate it) from the ground up.

    They don’t need more incentive.

    It seems they’re just doing a race to the bottom (justifying rebates because others have them), and in the way, making men seem worthless, while making women seem as bait. Both should be insulted.

  10. TFT,
    “Hence the reason for the freebies.”

    So basically it’s a form of prostitution with the bars pimping their female customers to their male customers. Got it. Real sound business deal, as you say. It’s been a winner for millennia.

    SWAB, talk about a sense of sexual entitlement! That was in no way tangential.

    “So we walk in and instantly get hit with attitude.”

    IOW you were not as hot as you thought you were, or as cool as all your street talk says you think you are.

    Clue for you, hot stuff – it was San Francisco. Breeders enter on sufferance.

  11. “I just don’t get why this club wouldn’t be happy to let in awesome people like us who think their main customer base consists of sweaty mongoloids for free lol”

    Apparently the dude in the group asked for a *small* discount, resulting in the cover dropping from 200$ to 120$, which is like 40% of the inital price, and still was offended. Idiot!

  12. Maybe, but dancing has been coded as a girly thing already. More girls are already interested (because they’re not trained to hate it) from the ground up.(Schala)

    Yep, I bought that line when I was younger too. The thing good about maturing(if you let it), you realize the training you had can be replaced by the training you choose. I didnt dance as a teenager or young man but now say “what the fuck” as an older, more confident adult! I do get some sideways glances as I dance but that is the price for not practicing enough when I was younger. ;)

    “Slowly all the roles we act out become our identity, and in the end, we are what we pretend to be.”
    Jerry Cantrell

    I decided to pretend otherwise………….

  13. @Ginkgo

    We all prostitute ourselves at some point. Some just like to make sure they get to set the price.

  14. “Some just like to make sure they get to set the price.”

    And like to revel in it and the call themselves oppressed.

  15. Some of them for sure. I typically avoid those ones. Or for fun, offer them less. ;)

  16. SWAB, talk about a sense of sexual entitlement! That was in no way tangential.

    Definitely. It’s worth pointing out that the strip club reviewer, judging from her review, was an avid strip-club goer. In other words, this isn’t merely a case of a narcissistic woman who feels entitled to male sexuality. This woman feels entitled to female sexuality as well.

    And speaking of strip clubs, it’s worth noting that there are many horror stories of male performers being abused by their female-only audience. When it comes to sexual entitlement, it extends well beyond female passivity and male chivalry. I think it’s an issue of maturity. I highly recommend this blog: http://therawness.com/the-myth-of-female-maturity-part-1/

  17. I love the Rawness and as it happens that very post is going to figure in an upcoming post here on women and social neoteny.

  18. Eh, I don’t buy that women are inherently less mature than men. I’m not the greatest history buff but I can’t think of any time before the last century in which women commonly behaved in such a relatively immature fashion.

    What has happened is that women are now allowed to be immature thanks to feminism destroying standards of ladylike behavior whereas men are still partially bound to be gentlemen.

    On strip clubs in particular women’s behavior can be attributed to a combination of their belief that men are horndogs who always will jump at the chance for pussy and the women’s narcissism which is much more tolerated in their gender. Why wouldn’t a woman who thinks both that all men want is sex and that she is incredibly sexy behave in such a manner?

  19. What has happened is that women are now allowed to be immature thanks to feminism destroying standards of ladylike behavior whereas men are still partially bound to be gentlemen.(Iron)

    I don’t think feminism has much to do with these behaviours at all. I think it is tied more to an over rich culture that tends to indulge their childrens every wish or want.

  20. The fellow at The Rawness tried to make clear that he wasn’t saying women are incapable of becoming as socially mature as men, just that the vast majority these days aren’t forced in the way men are to mature past about high school levels of maturity. So they just don’t. Maturity takes effort and pain to achieve, and if a person isn’t pushed, they usually don’t get there. Men are pushed hard all our lives, but women are sheltered instead.

    I believe women are more emotional creatures, men more logical, but logic doesn’t necessarily beget maturity, nor are “emotional” and “immature” synonymous. Our culture teaches men to repress their feelings, and women to indulge theirs without limit, thus producing two extremes of emotional immaturity: emotional diarrhea in women, emotional constipation in men. Holding it all in takes more of a certain kind of effort, and that’s what leads to men’s greater maturity, although now that I think about it this way, it occurs to me that a controlled balance is much better than the all or nothing solutions practiced by women and men, respectively, in general, as the saying goes, if you follow me.

  21. The Rawness is pointing to a feature of gender roles when he talks about women’s immaturity, an enculturated trait. This goes back before feminisms, or maybe not, if you count the Victorian period as the time when feminism arose. Sheltering woemn has been a feature of this culture for a long time and it leads to this kind of emotional retardation. this is exactly what feminists are railing against when they decry “benevolent sexism” and chivalry.

    “Our culture teaches men to repress their feelings, and women to indulge theirs without limit,…”

    Yes and sometimes the feelings they are expressing are not even their own, they are the repressed feelings of the men in thier lives who can’t express them themnselves. It’s a fucked up system.

  22. Gonna just say (and not that others have said different) that not expressing emotions doesn’t mean one doesn’t feel emotions. For me, it’s about not letting my emotions control my thinking or actions. Stone faced doesn’t mean cold hearted.

  23. What Tit for Tat said… YES.

    Jill Filipovic’s Guardian article about Adria Richards:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/mar/26/adria-richards-gets-rape-threats-for-speaking-out-about-workplace-sexism

    She is focusing on the rape and death threats and the fact that Richards is now in hiding. Comments?

    Theodmann: Holding it all in takes more of a certain kind of effort, and that’s what leads to men’s greater maturity

    But as we see from that article, men do NOT “hold it all in”– sending Richards a photo of a naked, decapitated bound woman’s body with the caption “When I’m done” is not holding anything in. At all.

    Once this kind of thing starts, nobody is listening to the sensible arguments about whether she did the right/wrong thing in the first place… just like ElevatorGate, the crazed over-reactions (death threats, obsessive emails) becomes the story. I am still dumbfounded and amazed by the fact that there are guys who still report obsessively about every little thing Rebecca Watson does and post endless photos of her on Instagram.

    Its just all out of proportion to events, and it alarms people, of all genders. Anyone who wants to confront these issues seriously, needs to take this aspect into account as well.

  24. This is the comment of Tit’s that I was enthusiastically yessing: I don’t think feminism has much to do with these behaviours at all. I think it is tied more to an over rich culture that tends to indulge their childrens every wish or want.

  25. “She is focusing on the rape and death threats and the fact that Richards is now in hiding. Comments?”

    It’s a deflection. The issue is Richards’ behavior and she is trying to make it about something else. And the comment section went mostly against her.

  26. Hey Daisy

    Im Tat, its the wifes Tit. ;)
    The death threats are hyperbole and are a perfect tool to avoid the vast majority of legitimate complaints that were directed at Adria Richards. I think similar tactics happen when some in the MRM focus of the radical aspects of feminism. It would be SOOooo much easier if we could just talk about the every day shit we lay on each other without having to bring in the radicals.

  27. Good point Tat (prefer Tit), since I am currently wishing we could discuss the Big Brother aspects of this without talking about gender at all. The fact is that the rise of Surveillance Society can be about gender or dongle jokes or anything else. To me, that’s the scary thing; there are cameras everywhere, snoops taping every fucking thing everywhere, and no privacy left at all.

    As I’ve said, there is an unauthorized video (maybe more than one) of me floating around the net, and absolutely nothing I can do about that. (I had no knowledge that I was being recorded) Its like there are self-appointed cops everywhere. I am reluctant to label this is ‘sexual entitlement’ since the guys who shot the video of me were Tea Party conservatives–this was a left vs right thing, not about gender.

    Its a whole syndrome, and it applies to every “side” in any given argument or political situation. I mean, we could even claim the US election hinged on a hidden-tape recording of Romney talking about the 47% to a private donor audience.

    It alarms me that we are now under surveillance every damn second. I am still unaccustomed to this, and I wonder if I ever will be…

  28. Daisy;

    Yes, that is the issue, but what about the death threats? Are we supposed to pretend that isn’t happening?

    Those are two seperate issues.
    1.Adria Richards publicly shaming the two guys at the conference for nothing.
    2.The problem that if a woman publicly does something, that many men find awful, some of the men will respond with threatening her with rape or death (although many of those threats don’t seem to be believable, their purpose is likely more to appall and hurt the receiver).
    People here seem to want to discuss 1. and although 2. is an important issue, I don’t see the value in derailing a discussion of 1. by 2. .
    To make myself clear a kind of similar example:
    Let us say I verbally insult 100 arbitrary strange young men on the street. Chances are that at least some of the men will respond with violence or at least the threat of violence. Again we have two issues.
    a.)Jupp insults people.
    b.)Some people respond to verbal insults with violence.
    Obviously b.) shouldn’t be used to excuse a.) and pragmatically, the actuality of b.) is a reason why a.) is not only immoral but outright stupid.

  29. @Jupp

    Actually its pretty freaking moronic of anyone to utter death or rape threats to someone who didn’t actually insult them. Your reasoning only works if one of the two men shamed decided to do that. Otherwise it is just a few whack jobs giving most of us a really bad rep.

  30. @Daisy

    The problem with the Adria soap opera is that she decided to use big brother to further her sexist agenda. The one that made her out to be a victim because of the sex jokes she overheard that were not directly for her consumption. She is one smart chickie who it seems may have outsmarted herself.

  31. As a natural Doubting Thomas, I ran the sunglasses possibility by a number of local Illinois State Police officers. They’d never heard of it. A call to state police headquarters also proved negative. Same edition. (Yes, Virginia, informational e-mails are like merry-go-rounds. They go round-and-round-some faster than others.) Again, it stated, in part, “most motorists turn wipers to high or the fastest speed during a heavy downpour, yet visibility in front of the windshield is still bad. brand name sunglasses wholesale china Just try your sunglasses (any model will do) and-miracle-all of a sudden, your visibility in front of your windshield is perfectly clear, as if there is no rain.”

  32. The death threats sort of remind me of the scene in Dream of the Red Chamber (in chapter 44) where Jia Lian is surprised by Wang Xi-Feng, who returns home from her birthday party to find him in the middle of an affair with one of the servants’ wives. They’re all drunk and Xi-Feng starts beating the other woman, which prompts Jia Lian to pull a decorative sword down off its stand and make a show of threatening to kill her. Jia Lian has no idea how to use a sword and no one really takes his threats seriously, but making a show of being violent and threatening is the only acceptably ‘masculine’ response he can muster (he gives up the act when he is chastised by Grandmother Jia, who orders him to make an apology the following day).

    I think most of the death threats you see coming from men are the same way: A desperate and immature attempt to find a sufficiently ‘masculine’ response to a situation. They don’t feel able to express themselves in terms of being emotionally hurt or offended or don’t believe that such expressions will get them anything but ridicule, so they fall back on the social stereotype of asserting themselves through a show of force. Of course, it’s counterproductive and tends to turn everyone against them, but it leaves their sense of identity intact and their pride satisfied. I know firsthand that it can be really frightening to be on the receiving end of messages like that, but in cases like this I very much doubt that they are all actually motivated by the kind of hatred they are generally assumed to express.

  33. Daisy:
    Yes, that is the issue, but what about the death threats? Are we supposed to pretend that isn’t happening?
    No we shouldn’t pretend they are not happening but they shouldn’t be allowed to become the story either. For the most part the only people that were talking about this story were the tech community and MRAs. Until the threats came and she was later terminated.

    THEN all of a sudden it was a story and this just goes to show you that a woman in the tech industry is supposed to just accept misogyny.

    What they are missing is that this was her overhearing a private conversation, brushing it off, seeing a picture of a young girl (just starting in the tech industry or just an example of a future woman in tech), and then retroactively deciding that what they did warranted action.

    She snapped that picture, tweeted it to the open Twitterverse, then tweeted for staff to do something about the situation.

    There was absolutely no attempt at addressing the issue on her own. No call out, no conversation, nothing.

    I stand by my saying that while those threats were messed up and wrong she kicked this off by choosing to make a scene and then pretending later that she took a stand.

    I have a link to someone talking about having dealt with her in the past on a recent post of mine (called, “Using a nuke to kill a house fly.”). Apparently this is not the first time she’s come across something she didn’t like at a conference and instead of bringing up the issue in hopes of resolving it she went right to complaining fullforce as if she tried peaceful resolution and got no response.

    Have we really gotten to the point where we really shoot first and only bother to ask question when we are fired back upon? (Because seriously if she had not gotten those threats and if she had not gotten fired, would this have even become a major story?)

  34. Titfortat:
    I agree with everything you say but

    Your reasoning only works if one of the two men shamed decided to do that.

    What reasoning?
    In my example I was talking only about my choices (and by analogy Adria Richards’ choices) and taking others behaviour as a given.

  35. My opinion is that Richards sicced an online hate mob on the two guys, then got an online hate mob sicced on her in return. You live by the sword, you die by the sword, and turnabout is fair play. I’ve no sympathy for her.

    I doubt any of the threats made are credible. But if any of the idiots who made threats are caught and suffer negative consequences, say losing their jobs, I’ll have no sympathy for them either. One kind of hate mob is no better than another.

  36. Daisy,
    “Yes, that is the issue, but what about the death threats? Are we supposed to pretend that isn’t happening?”

    No. We should be hunting those people down to determine if the threats are credible or not. Free speech is sacred so that requires us to police criminal forms of speech all the more.

    It’s just a seaparte issue. Those death threats don’t excuse Richards. She doesn’t get to cry victim and suddenly be come all innocent.

    HFD, that’s a cvery good example. Jia Lian is an example of this kind of man – if in factc these threats really are coming frorm men, as opposed to Richards herself; it would not be out of character for her to pull something like that – he is so castrated that he runs around outside womanizing to regain some masculinity.

    Daisy,
    “It alarms me that we are now under surveillance every damn second. I am still unaccustomed to this, and I wonder if I ever will be…”

    We have been living in a blest little window of privacy. Now we are going back to a past where everyone in town knew everyone else’s business and was quick to pass judgment on it. We just going back to that.

  37. @Ginkgo

    You should do a post on how the tech industry is seemingly so sexist probably because of all the so called nerds who inhabit it had terrible times in highschool with the chicks. ;)

  38. A few things:
    1) All those death threats and such over the internet being used as proof men are a problem in tech? They came from men really? The people sending those threats identified as men? You assuming the result. Perhaps a problem with the general atmosphere in tech, but there is no grounds to say this is evidence against just the men.
    So when daisy says
    “men do NOT “hold it all in”– sending Richards a photo of a naked, decapitated bound woman’s body with the caption “When I’m done” is not holding anything in. At all.”
    No. Some peep somewhere didn’t hold anything in. But we don’t know if its a he or she.

    2) The “sexist” joke probably shouldn’t have happened at the conference. That said, Ms. Cards-against-humanity-who-makes-penis joke, is calling the ketle black here.
    3) Other problems abound with Adria Richard’s actions. Harassing photography, and I think she said that “Sendgird supports me” at one point.
    4) The death threats are bad and totally out of place.

  39. TF, yeah, it is by no means clear all those threats come from men. They could very well be orchestrated by richards. Ask Dr. Tara if Richards is enough of an HCP to pull something like that.

    Either way the threats are evil, whether because they are death threats against soemone who doesn’t deserve them, or because they are a duplicitous scam.

  40. I don’t like the idea of always being video taped or whatever but then I’ll see a video where some cop or judge or clergy person is caught abusing their authority and I wonder if it’s a good enough trade off.

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  42. Thefish:

    2) The “sexist” joke probably shouldn’t have happened at the conference.

    Obviously, your use of inverted commas shows you recognise there’s nothing sexist about a bit of wordplay or innuendo. But I have noticed a few people online saying it wasn’t “professional” and so the guy deserved to be sacked. I call bullshit. Professional people are adults, and conferences are not school.

    Which brings me to another thought I’ve had. Little girls, it is said, mature faster than little boys. All that seems to mean is, because we tell them that, little girls start trying to act grown-up before little boys do. And their child’s perspective idea of acting grown-up is dressing up smart and scolding kids for messing around. So girls around twelve get interested in fashion and suppress their sense of humour, rolling their eyes and tutting at twelve-year-old boys who run around and shout and make each other laugh. (I think this is one of the two primary reasons why there are so few female standup comedians, the other being that “being good at something” is less important in female sexual and status display than it is in male sexual and status display.) Some of them never grow out of telling men off, or telling the teacher on them.

  43. “Some of them never grow out of telling men off, or telling the teacher on them.”

    It becomems part of their gender identity. You can confirm this by blocking them in this behavior. When you do that, you get called out basically on not conforming to gebder norms, usually some item on the anti-male shaming language list.

    “All that seems to mean is, because we tell them that, little girls start trying to act grown-up before little boys do.”

    That, or aamybe it’s just that their behavior gets labeled mature, by people who are still acting that way but imagine themselves all grown-up, so the boys’ behavior gets labeled immature.

  44. Professional people are adults, and conferences are not school.

    Apparently conferences are are tense diplomatic functions. The fate of nations is at stake. Think of the humanity! Whatever you do, make sure you don’t wear the wrong color morning dress out to brunch, either, lest you offend someone’s refined and completely non-humorous sensibilities. These are grave matters. As always, look out for microphones hidden in the shrubs when you take a stroll through the hotel grounds with your feminist paramour.

  45. For any feminists who might be reading this, allow me to define what professionalism is.

    It is behaving in a manner that does not adversely affect your employer’s bottom line. If you’re taking part of contracting negotiations with the Japanese 20 years after WW2 ended, don’t go off on a rant about how many of your buddies they killed in the war. But if you’re not on company time, not on your company’s premises, not in front of anyone who has anything at all to do with your company’s business interests, I think it’s *quite safe* to make use of your free speech and express how you feel.

    The top reason why Adria Richards got fired is this: “Sendgird supports me.” Of everything else that transpired in this sage, that is the one true instance of someone doing something truly unprofessional. She had created a clear conflict of interest between her feminist crusade and her employers and coworkers. If I owned Sendgrid, I would have fired her on the spot just for that.

  46. “The top reason why Adria Richards got fired is this: “Sendgird supports me.”

    This is what I call “cimbing back up into Daddy’s lap” – marshalling patriarchal power enforcement mechanisms in the service of your female privilege. It has been the essence of feminist activism and advocacy, from the Suffragettes forward.

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  48. Ginkgo: “That, or aamybe it’s just that their behavior gets labeled mature, by people who are still acting that way but imagine themselves all grown-up, so the boys’ behavior gets labeled immature.”

    That’s pretty much it. That’s just reminded me of that quote by C.S Lewis:

    “Critics who treat ‘adult’ as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.”

  49. The “child’s idea of acting grown up” reminds me of the posts made over at The Rawness about women’s mythical maturity. There wouldn’t be such a problem if it were only the women who thought they were acting grown up when they aren’t. But most everybody else seems to think so too.

  50. All this females’ greater maturity bollocks stems from the biological fact that women tend to physically mature faster (i.e. girls tend to hit puberty before boys) being grossly misinterpreted. Turning from an adolescent into an adult has little to do with psychological maturity which often eludes even the oldest.

  51. anie.

    Rozciągnięta klatka piersiowa niie kontrola dostepu umożliwiła na zaczerpnięcie
    oddechu, odprężenie system pomiaru czasu pracy (rejestracja-czasu-pracy.kontrola-dostepu.eu)

    w pewnym sensie pomroczniał.

    Co tędy czyni tenże zapij aczony owobowe źródło informacji Kirpiczew?
    Wagner rozerwie mu dupę do

    kołnierzyka, poddczas gdy się zaledwie dowie, zaś Rościsławski
    dołoży swoje. W spkczynku sprawiło

    się jeszcze mroczniej. Potrfafi Wagner się nie dowie.

    - Bros wintowku, bliadskaja doczka! – huknął
    Kirpiczew. Komandos.

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